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I've opened up about certain experiences

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that at the time were absolutely

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terrifying anything that takes your mind

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into a different place that ultimately

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you learn something from fits within the

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genre of exploration of Altered States

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today we talk about Consciousness time

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travel String Theory quantum gravity and

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wormholes Brian Greene is a theoretical

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physicist a mathematician and a string

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theorist who is best known for his work

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on mirror symmetry and flop transitions

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Brian's also a professor at Columbia

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University as well as the chairman of

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the world Science Festival and the

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author of several popular books on

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physics including the elegant Universe

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this was a purposefully desultory

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interview which brought us both to

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uncomfortable ground comfortably you'll

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see what I mean my name's Kurt J Mongol

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I have a background in mathematical

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physics this podcast is called theories

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of everything is dedicated to the

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exploration of theories of everything

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from a theoretical physics perspective

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but as well as exploring the role

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Consciousness has to the fundamental

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laws of nature each sponsor as well as

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the patrons improves the quality of the

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videos drastically it improves the depth

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it improves the frequency and it goes

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toward paying the staff for instance

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someone who's editing this full time

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right now and then we have an operations

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manager in that vein I want to thank

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today's sponsor brilliant if you're

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familiar with toe you're familiar with

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brilliant but for those who don't know

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Brilliance is a place where you go to

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learn math science and engineering

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through these bite-sized Interactive

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Learning experiences for example and I

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keep saying this I would like to do a

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podcast on information Theory

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particularly Chiara marletto which is

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David Deutsch's student has a theory of

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everything that she puts forward called

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Constructor Theory which is heavily

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contingent on information Theory so I

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took their course on random variable

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distributions and knowledge and

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uncertainty in order to learn a bit more

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about entropy now there's this formula

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for entropy essentially hammered into

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you as an undergraduate which seems to

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have fallen from the sky however when

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you take Brilliance course it was the

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first time that I could see that it's an

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extremely clear and intuitive formula

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that is to say that it would be

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unnatural to Define it in any other

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manner visit brilliant.org toe that is

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t-o-e to get 20 off the annual

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subscription and I recommend that you

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don't stop before four lessons I think

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you'll be greatly surprised that the

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ease at which you can now comprehend

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subjects you previously had a difficult

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time grocking at some point I'll also go

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through the courses and give a

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recommendation in order if you'd like to

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support the theories of everything

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podcast and help assist that is the

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improved video quality the depth the

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frequency of the podcast and paying the

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staff then do consider going to

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patreon.com

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kurtjimungle the link is on screen as

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well as in the description there's a

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custom amount as well as already

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delineated tiers either way your

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viewership is thank you enough enjoy

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this episode with Brian Greene

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Professor Brian Greene it's an honor to

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speak with you I've been researching you

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since I was young and also as I've

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gotten older it's an honor thank you for

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coming on thank you appreciate that

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thank you so much

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what have you been working on in the

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past year and what do you hope to

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accomplish in the next year and this

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year

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well uh yeah I've been working on some

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strange things of late which I'm almost

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afraid to talk about but since they've

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been published I I guess I shouldn't at

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all hold back

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but it sounds a little kooky

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uh it sounds like the kind of things

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that I receive in you know emails and

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crank letters for the past 30 years it

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it has to do with questioning whether

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the speed of light really is the limit

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for Signal transmission

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and we all know that as anyone who's

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taken basic physics studied special

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relativity that it's an absolutely well

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established fact that locally

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the speed of light is the limit for

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Signal transmission obviously going back

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to Einstein and a gazillion experiment

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since but there are some unusual

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contexts that theories like string

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theory suggest

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and those contacts suggest that the

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overall shape of space might be

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non-trivial in the sense that it might

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not just sort of go on forever space my

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curve back on itself and you can ask

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yourself what if the universe is in the

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shape of a loop or at least there are

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dimensions that are looped that as you

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go out in One Direction you go far

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enough you'll come back to your starting

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point

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and so we began to study signal

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Transmission in universes where the

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signal could go all the way around the

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universe and root to its destination

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and we found in certain circumstances

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that I'd be happy to

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elaborate that you could have signals

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going in that unusual trajectory that

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would get to their destination faster

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than the signal that would seemingly be

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the quicker one moving

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right through the space-time without

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traversing these these closed curves and

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so we found that there are signals that

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can go from here to there faster than

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the speed of light this is related to

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the topology of the universe and not the

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variable speed of light yeah this is not

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a variable speed of light

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type of contribution as you know as

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you're making a reference to there's

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been a whole

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industry that

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for various physicists pursued over the

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course of many years wondering about

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whether the speed of light might vary

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through time at temporal dependence to

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the speed of light very interesting idea

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I really don't know that there's much

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evidence for it nor is there much

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evidence for what I'm talking about

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either so this is like throwing stones

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in a glass house but be that as it may

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you're right it all has to do with the

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topology of space and if that topology

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is non-trivial if they're

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non-contractable Loops in that space

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then that allows for qualitatively

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different trajectories for signals

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and when you take those into account you

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find that the signals can have a net

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speed that's faster than the speed of

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light and moreover

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it starts to sound a little bit kooky

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but when you take special relativity you

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learn that if signal can go faster in

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the speed of light then there are

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observers according to whom that signal

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may arrive at its destination prior to

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the time at which was emitted

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and indeed we find examples of that in

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other words we find examples where you

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can send a signal into the past

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and again I hesitate saying this but you

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asked me the question of what I've been

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working on lately so I feel I need to

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answer fully and truthfully

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um I hesitate to say this because this

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has sort of been the playground

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of kind of

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thinkers who wanted to upset Einstein

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and become the new Einstein to try to

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find some flawout in the special

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activity this is not a flaw from the

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special relativity it's a feature of the

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special relativity when applied to a

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universe that has one of these

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non-trivial topologies

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so a close timeline curve doesn't go

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against general relativity girdle had a

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solution that has close timeline curves

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are you suggesting some amendment to a

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general relativity or are you just

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saying look the actual structure of

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space time or the shape of it is

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different so you're not proposing new

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laws no no laws yeah and so you know the

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whole notion of closed time like curves

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is a tricky one that's that's one where

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there's a full trajectory that gets back

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to its starting point prior to when it

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departed and we don't exactly find those

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kind of structures in these theories so

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if I send a signal out into space and

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send it somehow into the past and then

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someone in the past gets that signal and

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fires back toward me the return signal

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will always get to me in at least no

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time in other words it won't be that I

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get the signal prior to I the moment

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when I admitted it

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so this would allow for interesting

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things such as you know we've always

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worried well worry it's probably too

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strong a word we've always noted that if

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we discover intelligent life out there

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in the cosmos and it's very far away

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how are we going to have a conversation

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right we send out a signal hey how you

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guys doing and what do we do we wait

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like a hundred thousand years or a

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million years for the return signal and

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by that point we've forgotten that we're

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in a conversation at all but in the

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theories that I'm describing now with

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these universes with these non-trivial

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topologies you can send a signal out

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into space and the person can get it and

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respond and you will receive it in in

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virtually no time in as little time as

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as one can imagine and so you can have a

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real-time conversation

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with someone who's in an arbitrary

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distance so I think that's pretty

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startling and mind-boggling and kind of

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wonderful and who knows if any of these

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ideas happen to be true it would allow

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for conversations that in the more usual

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setting would just be impossible but no

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it's no amendment to general relativity

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it's no change at all to the fundamental

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laws that's the kind of fun thing about

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this approach you know if you come along

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and say well let's now bend the laws of

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physics as we knew it in the past change

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it in some way sure obviously you're

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going to get some new effects but then

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it all depends on the utility of it

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depends on was that amendment was that

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changed at all reasonable so we're not

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changing the laws of physics at all

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we're just considering

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shapes of space that are very natural in

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certain unified theories like string

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theory you know collusa Klein type

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theories that people study in the past

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and just examining conventional physics

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in a new setting as opposed to new

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physics in either conventional or new

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setting is any of this related to

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wormholes or is this separate

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it is definitely separate

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from wormholes in

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the conventional way that people think

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about wormholes but there is

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um a deep Association in the following

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sense

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if you are looking at a signal that's

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traversing say you know a circular

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dimension of space

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one of the most profitable ways

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scientifically of studying that is to

280
00:10:53,810 --> 00:10:51,120
imagine cutting that Circle and opening

281
00:10:55,430 --> 00:10:53,820
it up into a line saying infinite line

282
00:10:58,310 --> 00:10:55,440
and then just having global

283
00:11:00,350 --> 00:10:58,320
identifications point zero identified

284
00:11:03,170 --> 00:11:00,360
with two pi r identified with four Pi

285
00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:03,180
with 6 pi r and so forth and in that way

286
00:11:07,009 --> 00:11:05,100
you effectively have a circle because of

287
00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:07,019
those identifications but you've

288
00:11:12,889 --> 00:11:09,120
unraveled it into a more conventional

289
00:11:16,490 --> 00:11:12,899
shape a line and then when a signal goes

290
00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:16,500
from zero say to two pi r which really

291
00:11:20,750 --> 00:11:18,480
in some sense happening is the signal is

292
00:11:22,190 --> 00:11:20,760
then in essence jumping through a

293
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:22,200
wormhole and going back to its starting

294
00:11:26,509 --> 00:11:23,519
point

295
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:26,519
and so you can reframe everything that

296
00:11:32,329 --> 00:11:29,519
I'm talking about using the language of

297
00:11:34,850 --> 00:11:32,339
wormholes but wormholes are not as

298
00:11:36,829 --> 00:11:34,860
essential to the story as it might be in

299
00:11:39,530 --> 00:11:36,839
certain other applications where you

300
00:11:41,449 --> 00:11:39,540
start to worry about things like well is

301
00:11:43,130 --> 00:11:41,459
it Wormhole traversable will it stay

302
00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:43,140
open long enough for someone to actually

303
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:45,660
go through for a signal to go through in

304
00:11:49,970 --> 00:11:48,000
this case a wormhole is really more of a

305
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:49,980
technique a mathematical technique for

306
00:11:56,030 --> 00:11:53,040
analyzing the situation as opposed to

307
00:11:58,430 --> 00:11:56,040
being fundamental to the whole idea

308
00:12:00,590 --> 00:11:58,440
so this year your plans are what to work

309
00:12:02,569 --> 00:12:00,600
on this Theory some more or

310
00:12:03,410 --> 00:12:02,579
yeah that we're gonna definitely present

311
00:12:05,329 --> 00:12:03,420
you know

312
00:12:07,490 --> 00:12:05,339
look and what is this called by the way

313
00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:07,500
sorry is there a name for this

314
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:10,140
or a paper that people can look up yeah

315
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:11,519
if you're written a couple of papers on

316
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:15,600
it the the most recent one has the title

317
00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:18,000
Back to the Future

318
00:12:21,889 --> 00:12:19,560
which um

319
00:12:23,930 --> 00:12:21,899
the editors at physical review D

320
00:12:25,850 --> 00:12:23,940
initially sent the paper back and said

321
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:25,860
we like the paper but you got to change

322
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:28,800
the title because it's like we just

323
00:12:32,530 --> 00:12:30,959
don't have titles like that and I have

324
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:32,540
to say I kind of took a little bit

325
00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:35,519
offenses too strong a word but you know

326
00:12:39,230 --> 00:12:37,500
we wrote back to them and said sure

327
00:12:42,410 --> 00:12:39,240
there's a cultural reference it's kind

328
00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:42,420
of fun but it's not just the cultural

329
00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:44,760
reference for a cultural reference's

330
00:12:50,990 --> 00:12:48,540
sake we truly are talking about a signal

331
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:51,000
that can travel from us

332
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:54,240
back to the past and then into the

333
00:12:58,910 --> 00:12:55,920
future because as I said before the

334
00:13:01,730 --> 00:12:58,920
return signal always gets to us in a

335
00:13:04,430 --> 00:13:01,740
non-negative amount of time so it's it's

336
00:13:06,670 --> 00:13:04,440
Back to the Future it's like a perfect

337
00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:06,680
description of what we're talking about

338
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,380
and to their credit the editors at

339
00:13:16,250 --> 00:13:12,959
physical review D finally said yeah okay

340
00:13:19,449 --> 00:13:16,260
you're right it works so the paper was

341
00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:19,459
accepted with that somewhat perhaps

342
00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:22,620
loose sounding title but one that really

343
00:13:28,129 --> 00:13:25,940
does have a descriptive

344
00:13:30,769 --> 00:13:28,139
approach to what we're talking about

345
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:30,779
that's spot on and so yeah if people

346
00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:32,399
want to see the technical details that

347
00:13:38,449 --> 00:13:35,660
would be a paper to look at

348
00:13:40,970 --> 00:13:38,459
and you have an event coming up at least

349
00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:40,980
here in Toronto on January 26th if I'm

350
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:42,660
not mistaken so that's about a week from

351
00:13:45,889 --> 00:13:44,160
now when this is being published when

352
00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:45,899
you're seeing this can you tell myself a

353
00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:47,220
little bit about that in the audience as

354
00:13:52,610 --> 00:13:48,060
well

355
00:13:55,370 --> 00:13:52,620
yeah absolutely so the uh it's a talk at

356
00:13:57,230 --> 00:13:55,380
Roy Thompson Hall I've never been there

357
00:14:00,290 --> 00:13:57,240
before but at least the pictures look

358
00:14:03,410 --> 00:14:00,300
like it's a quite beautiful venue and

359
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:03,420
it's a a journey that I'm going to take

360
00:14:09,949 --> 00:14:06,959
the audience on from the beginning of

361
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:09,959
time up to the present and out toward

362
00:14:15,949 --> 00:14:12,240
the farthest that science can take us

363
00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:15,959
toward the end toward eternity

364
00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:18,660
and my point in taking the audience on

365
00:14:23,629 --> 00:14:20,940
this journey will be partly to

366
00:14:26,509 --> 00:14:23,639
illuminate some of the key scientific

367
00:14:29,449 --> 00:14:26,519
ideas that that guide the cosmological

368
00:14:31,610 --> 00:14:29,459
unfolding on the largest of scales and

369
00:14:34,490 --> 00:14:31,620
the largest of time scales

370
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:34,500
but I also want to give people a sense

371
00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:37,200
of what science says about how we fit in

372
00:14:45,470 --> 00:14:41,459
to this Cosmic order from this broadest

373
00:14:48,290 --> 00:14:45,480
this largest perspective and so we will

374
00:14:51,189 --> 00:14:48,300
be covering the formation of stars and

375
00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:51,199
galaxies a little discussion about how

376
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:54,600
entropy and life interplay and play off

377
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:57,360
of one another and then once we get to

378
00:15:00,590 --> 00:14:58,800
the present we'll turn our attention

379
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:00,600
toward the future and see how it all

380
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:03,480
comes crashing down when you look at

381
00:15:08,290 --> 00:15:05,519
sufficiently large time scales as

382
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:08,300
entropy gains the upper hand

383
00:15:18,430 --> 00:15:13,040
and I'll conclude the evening with some

384
00:15:20,810 --> 00:15:18,440
remarks on how one might interpret this

385
00:15:23,689 --> 00:15:20,820
large-scale understanding of the cosmos

386
00:15:26,509 --> 00:15:23,699
in more human terms and how it is that

387
00:15:29,629 --> 00:15:26,519
perhaps this perspective Can Shed light

388
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:29,639
on the age-old questions of of meaning

389
00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:34,079
and purpose which occupy all of us in

390
00:15:38,449 --> 00:15:36,060
one way or another so how does it shed

391
00:15:41,449 --> 00:15:38,459
light on those on meaning and purpose

392
00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:41,459
well objectively

393
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:43,620
so well you should come to the uh the

394
00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:44,880
evening but I'm more than happy to

395
00:15:50,030 --> 00:15:47,760
discuss it now in in Broad Strokes so

396
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:50,040
look you said objectively and I would

397
00:15:53,150 --> 00:15:51,600
say I I don't know that objectively

398
00:15:55,250 --> 00:15:53,160
there is an answer I think it is

399
00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:55,260
ultimately the subject of search that

400
00:15:59,990 --> 00:15:57,300
each human being is ultimately on to try

401
00:16:02,930 --> 00:16:00,000
to make sense of their life make sense

402
00:16:05,689 --> 00:16:02,940
of their existence but what this

403
00:16:08,449 --> 00:16:05,699
perspective does for me and I found that

404
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:08,459
it resonates with many people

405
00:16:16,189 --> 00:16:13,040
it it shows us how unbelievably

406
00:16:17,629 --> 00:16:16,199
astoundingly unlikely our own existence

407
00:16:22,090 --> 00:16:17,639
is

408
00:16:24,889 --> 00:16:22,100
against the spectrum of possible

409
00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:24,899
combinations of base pairs of DNA

410
00:16:29,569 --> 00:16:27,120
against the spectrum of possible

411
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:29,579
molecular configurations against the

412
00:16:34,850 --> 00:16:32,399
spectrum of possible outcome of quantum

413
00:16:37,249 --> 00:16:34,860
processes right that that stretch from

414
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:37,259
the beginning until today that each of

415
00:16:41,389 --> 00:16:38,639
them could have turned out one way

416
00:16:43,009 --> 00:16:41,399
versus the way they did yielding

417
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:43,019
Universe in which we wouldn't be here

418
00:16:51,410 --> 00:16:47,279
against these astounding odds were here

419
00:16:54,110 --> 00:16:51,420
and to me that's the beginning of the

420
00:16:57,889 --> 00:16:54,120
most fruitful compelling and satisfying

421
00:17:01,009 --> 00:16:57,899
approach to finding some sense of

422
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:01,019
purpose or meaning because rather than

423
00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:04,319
looking out to the universe which we see

424
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:07,020
in many philosophies and frankly many

425
00:17:13,069 --> 00:17:10,319
religions looking out to the cosmos to

426
00:17:14,809 --> 00:17:13,079
bestow upon us some Ultimate answers

427
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:14,819
some ultimate meaning some ultimate

428
00:17:18,169 --> 00:17:15,839
purpose

429
00:17:20,929 --> 00:17:18,179
this understanding of the cosmological

430
00:17:22,929 --> 00:17:20,939
timeline and the astounding unlikeliness

431
00:17:27,049 --> 00:17:22,939
of our own existence

432
00:17:29,890 --> 00:17:27,059
turns the spotlight inward it turns the

433
00:17:32,270 --> 00:17:29,900
spotlight to a recognition of how

434
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:32,280
astounding it is not only that we exist

435
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:35,360
but we have the powers that our

436
00:17:40,010 --> 00:17:38,640
particulate Arrangement endows us with

437
00:17:41,210 --> 00:17:40,020
look what we can do we can have this

438
00:17:44,029 --> 00:17:41,220
conversation

439
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:44,039
we can figure out the past there aren't

440
00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:45,840
many other life forms that we're aware

441
00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:48,660
of that can do that we can imagine the

442
00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:51,480
future again not many life forms have

443
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:54,720
been able to work out a testable science

444
00:17:58,450 --> 00:17:56,880
that can give us insight into things

445
00:18:01,010 --> 00:17:58,460
that haven't yet happened to the Future

446
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:01,020
and the power of the human mind to do

447
00:18:06,770 --> 00:18:03,840
all that and and to create Beauty in the

448
00:18:09,770 --> 00:18:06,780
world and to illuminate mystery in the

449
00:18:11,690 --> 00:18:09,780
world and and to experience The Wonder

450
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:11,700
of it all

451
00:18:20,210 --> 00:18:15,600
to me that is where a deep kind of

452
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:20,220
gratitude emerges and that gratitude is

453
00:18:26,330 --> 00:18:23,280
for the mere existence of human beings

454
00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:26,340
and it's not dependent upon whether

455
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:28,260
we're going to have some lasting Legacy

456
00:18:33,289 --> 00:18:31,679
it rather is just focused on the fact

457
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:33,299
that we're here at all and that we can

458
00:18:39,830 --> 00:18:35,520
do the things that we can do and with

459
00:18:42,350 --> 00:18:39,840
that comes in appreciation which for me

460
00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:42,360
is deeply compelling and satisfying

461
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:44,520
regardless of my understanding of how

462
00:18:50,810 --> 00:18:47,520
evanescent it all is

463
00:18:56,510 --> 00:18:53,570
I do and I think that

464
00:19:00,650 --> 00:18:56,520
the fear of death is

465
00:19:03,470 --> 00:19:00,660
one of the major driving forces of of

466
00:19:06,529 --> 00:19:03,480
the human species both as a species as a

467
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:06,539
whole and as individuals and this is not

468
00:19:12,650 --> 00:19:10,260
you know an original thought when I was

469
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:12,660
I guess way back in college I

470
00:19:18,590 --> 00:19:15,360
encountered a book called the denial of

471
00:19:22,370 --> 00:19:18,600
death by Ernest Becker who himself was

472
00:19:26,169 --> 00:19:22,380
channeling and developing ideas of other

473
00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:26,179
Rock one of the great early

474
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:29,820
psychologists who was in the Freudian

475
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:32,960
school to begin with and then really

476
00:19:41,930 --> 00:19:37,200
plowed his own path and this idea that

477
00:19:44,270 --> 00:19:41,940
we humans are a rare life form that not

478
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:44,280
only can we imagine the future as I

479
00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:47,520
mentioned before but we recognize that

480
00:19:52,909 --> 00:19:49,320
if we looked far enough into that future

481
00:19:57,549 --> 00:19:52,919
we're not there we recognize that we're

482
00:20:01,669 --> 00:19:57,559
mortal and that recognition of mortality

483
00:20:05,470 --> 00:20:01,679
fights against the urge for

484
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:05,480
influence Legacy a

485
00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:11,520
lasting part of us we urge that we don't

486
00:20:18,350 --> 00:20:14,820
get washed away by the by the Relentless

487
00:20:21,049 --> 00:20:18,360
Winds of time and yet that

488
00:20:23,810 --> 00:20:21,059
is not the way the universe is

489
00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:23,820
constructed and so the fear of

490
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:25,620
everything we love everything we care

491
00:20:31,549 --> 00:20:27,360
about everything we develop everything

492
00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:31,559
that we worry about and spend energy and

493
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:33,780
time on that it all goes away

494
00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:37,440
to me is one of the deep insights and

495
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:40,260
the Deep motivators for how we humans

496
00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:42,000
behave

497
00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:44,520
have you ever inhabited a dark state of

498
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:46,860
mind for a prolonged period of time so

499
00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:49,679
for instance contemplation of

500
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,200
suicide or ideation on the supposed

501
00:20:55,610 --> 00:20:54,480
objective meaninglessness of the world

502
00:20:57,470 --> 00:20:55,620
and that you have to find it

503
00:21:00,350 --> 00:20:57,480
subjectively but maybe it was Fringe to

504
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:00,360
your sanity yeah well I would say that

505
00:21:07,610 --> 00:21:04,799
I've never gotten thankfully to the

506
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:07,620
place of sort of suicidal ideation and

507
00:21:13,789 --> 00:21:11,520
again you know anybody who has uh you

508
00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:13,799
know seek out help and guidance because

509
00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:17,640
there there are ways to get to a better

510
00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:19,980
place but I have certainly

511
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:23,700
inhabited Dark Places and some of it has

512
00:21:28,490 --> 00:21:25,919
come from the things that we're talking

513
00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:28,500
about when you think about the cosmos

514
00:21:34,430 --> 00:21:31,080
and the laws of physics and our little

515
00:21:38,169 --> 00:21:34,440
tiny planet Earth just floating in this

516
00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:38,179
vast perhaps infinitely vast Darkness

517
00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:40,980
there is a way that if you take that in

518
00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:43,020
emotionally as opposed to just purely

519
00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:44,580
intellectually

520
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:47,340
it can take you to a place of of

521
00:21:55,250 --> 00:21:52,080
darkness and fear foreboding and I have

522
00:21:57,289 --> 00:21:55,260
explored that on occasion so how have

523
00:21:59,330 --> 00:21:57,299
you gotten out of that well one solution

524
00:22:02,390 --> 00:21:59,340
may be to separate the intellect and the

525
00:22:04,190 --> 00:22:02,400
motion and just explore the vastness of

526
00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:04,200
the cosmos intellectually rather than

527
00:22:07,850 --> 00:22:05,880
emotionally because it may it may feel

528
00:22:11,810 --> 00:22:07,860
you may feel daunted

529
00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:11,820
or you could say hey look maybe the fact

530
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:14,340
that we're finite and temporarily bound

531
00:22:18,110 --> 00:22:16,559
isn't what matters most because it's

532
00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:18,120
like going to a suffering child and

533
00:22:21,649 --> 00:22:19,620
saying oh that doesn't matter that the

534
00:22:25,010 --> 00:22:21,659
child's being tortured by some serial

535
00:22:27,289 --> 00:22:25,020
killer it's finite hahaha like that's

536
00:22:29,630 --> 00:22:27,299
not that's that doesn't help anyone so

537
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:29,640
sure the fact that we're small spatially

538
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:32,159
or a small temporally yeah and and and

539
00:22:35,870 --> 00:22:34,260
you know the answer to your question

540
00:22:37,970 --> 00:22:35,880
there have been I mean without going

541
00:22:41,090 --> 00:22:37,980
into great detail there certainly have

542
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:41,100
been periods of my life luckily they've

543
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:42,720
not been

544
00:22:48,289 --> 00:22:45,600
incredibly long but there have certainly

545
00:22:51,409 --> 00:22:48,299
been periods when I wasn't exactly sure

546
00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:51,419
how to find my way out of the dark

547
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:52,860
space

548
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,280
and ultimately what really helped me was

549
00:23:06,649 --> 00:23:01,919
along the lines of what you're saying to

550
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:06,659
blend the the human emotion which can be

551
00:23:14,570 --> 00:23:11,100
Terror of mortality that can be a sense

552
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:14,580
of insignificance against the cosmic

553
00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:18,240
order but to blend that with a

554
00:23:22,750 --> 00:23:20,580
recognition that sure we may be

555
00:23:26,690 --> 00:23:22,760
insignificant but

556
00:23:29,149 --> 00:23:26,700
we as a species may have figured out

557
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:29,159
How the Universe began and how it

558
00:23:34,669 --> 00:23:31,919
evolved and we may have figured out what

559
00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:34,679
laws of physics are in operation both

560
00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:37,740
here but also throughout the entirety of

561
00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,140
an infinite Cosmos we may have figured

562
00:23:45,289 --> 00:23:42,600
out laws that are relevant not just

563
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:45,299
today and yesterday but perhaps relevant

564
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:46,400
all the way

565
00:23:52,430 --> 00:23:49,500
13.8 billion years ago and may continue

566
00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:52,440
to be relevant a hundred billion or a

567
00:23:57,409 --> 00:23:53,940
trillion or who knows how many years

568
00:24:00,830 --> 00:23:57,419
into the future and so if you allow

569
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:00,840
yourself to feel part of that human

570
00:24:06,490 --> 00:24:04,080
journey and that human achievement I

571
00:24:09,169 --> 00:24:06,500
have found that that can

572
00:24:13,010 --> 00:24:09,179
assuage some of the darkness and make

573
00:24:15,649 --> 00:24:13,020
one feel a connection to a larger Cosmos

574
00:24:19,549 --> 00:24:15,659
and that connection to that large or

575
00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:19,559
Cosmos for me has certainly helped to

576
00:24:24,289 --> 00:24:22,500
pull me from a place of smallness and

577
00:24:26,890 --> 00:24:24,299
and feeling of darkness and

578
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:26,900
insignificance to at least a connection

579
00:24:32,210 --> 00:24:30,840
that ameliorated those qualities and

580
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,220
those feelings

581
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:34,080
approximately how old were you when you

582
00:24:38,149 --> 00:24:35,520
were going through this period if you

583
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:38,159
don't mind me asking I you know it's a

584
00:24:45,409 --> 00:24:41,520
good question you know certainly there

585
00:24:47,330 --> 00:24:45,419
was a a time in my 40s that I can that I

586
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,340
can point to

587
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:50,159
um there were episodes earlier like

588
00:24:55,310 --> 00:24:52,799
right after college I went through a

589
00:24:59,570 --> 00:24:55,320
kind of a rough spell there but it was

590
00:25:03,010 --> 00:24:59,580
thankfully relatively short-lived

591
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:03,020
um and so it's been it's been periodic

592
00:25:09,470 --> 00:25:06,000
but it hasn't been debilitating

593
00:25:11,570 --> 00:25:09,480
and when I look at the things that I've

594
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:11,580
done that I value most

595
00:25:17,390 --> 00:25:14,220
I can't help but think that those

596
00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:17,400
periods were pretty vital toward being

597
00:25:22,909 --> 00:25:20,280
able to do the things that I did so look

598
00:25:26,750 --> 00:25:22,919
it's a life is a is a whole package

599
00:25:28,610 --> 00:25:26,760
right and and that whole package for

600
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:28,620
some will involve periods that are less

601
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:30,000
comfortable than others from this

602
00:25:34,730 --> 00:25:32,640
perspective was it mainly the paltryness

603
00:25:37,310 --> 00:25:34,740
of existence or did you feel worthless

604
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:37,320
as a result or for some other reason an

605
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:39,120
apologies if it's getting personal but

606
00:25:42,890 --> 00:25:40,799
it's just that many people including

607
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:42,900
myself like it's super helpful to see

608
00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:45,360
people that you look up to as a hero

609
00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:47,400
intellectually especially going through

610
00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:50,700
what is common and emotional

611
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:53,220
yeah you know it definitely wasn't

612
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:56,400
feelings of worthlessness

613
00:26:03,289 --> 00:26:00,720
in a sense it wasn't quite that personal

614
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:03,299
I mean obviously it was a a very

615
00:26:09,769 --> 00:26:05,520
personal sensation and and a personal

616
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:09,779
challenge to um to overcome certain

617
00:26:15,649 --> 00:26:12,720
things that made it difficult to feel to

618
00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:15,659
feel happy and to feel alive

619
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:18,900
but it was never a sense of I Brian

620
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:21,600
Green I'm worthless it was more a sense

621
00:26:24,769 --> 00:26:23,039
of

622
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:24,779
oh my God

623
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:28,320
like how does one live with the

624
00:26:35,810 --> 00:26:31,919
understanding of

625
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:35,820
the fact that apparently we are just the

626
00:26:42,289 --> 00:26:37,740
random output

627
00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:42,299
of random conditions being Guided by a

628
00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:45,480
particular set of rigid mathematical

629
00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:47,100
rules

630
00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:49,679
and if you think about that cognitively

631
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:52,440
it's kind of interesting and quirky but

632
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:55,200
if you think about it emotionally

633
00:26:59,090 --> 00:26:58,080
it can really take you to a different

634
00:27:03,350 --> 00:26:59,100
place

635
00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:03,360
and and for me as I was saying before I

636
00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:07,260
think the key to going forward was to

637
00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:10,200
not be terrorized by those realizations

638
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:14,240
but find a way within those realizations

639
00:27:22,250 --> 00:27:19,440
to feel a deep gratification and that's

640
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:22,260
a place that I've been able to get to

641
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:24,480
but it's relatively recent getting to

642
00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:27,120
that place it's not as though as the 19

643
00:27:33,230 --> 00:27:29,520
year old or a 20 year old this was

644
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:33,240
something that was right there and so it

645
00:27:39,769 --> 00:27:35,520
really is tying together the emotional

646
00:27:42,049 --> 00:27:39,779
and the cognitive into a narrative a

647
00:27:45,529 --> 00:27:42,059
story that at least for me is an

648
00:27:50,810 --> 00:27:45,539
individual leaves me feeling deeply

649
00:27:53,870 --> 00:27:50,820
connected to a wider reality and no

650
00:27:57,130 --> 00:27:53,880
longer feeling that sense of foreboding

651
00:27:59,750 --> 00:27:57,140
at the apparent

652
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:59,760
randomness of it all

653
00:28:03,669 --> 00:28:01,679
is it possible to find meaning and

654
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:03,679
disconnectedness I often hear that

655
00:28:08,390 --> 00:28:05,640
connectedness is associated with meaning

656
00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:08,400
but is it possible do you see a way that

657
00:28:12,289 --> 00:28:10,140
you could be too connected and you feel

658
00:28:13,730 --> 00:28:12,299
like okay let me just back off a bit

659
00:28:16,190 --> 00:28:13,740
well it's a funny thing that you frame

660
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:16,200
it that way because anybody who knows me

661
00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:18,240
who personally would not consider me

662
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:22,980
connected in the usual sense I don't

663
00:28:28,010 --> 00:28:26,640
spend an enormous amount of time with uh

664
00:28:31,549 --> 00:28:28,020
human beings

665
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:31,559
outside of my most immediate family you

666
00:28:38,090 --> 00:28:35,279
know my my kids and wife like to joke of

667
00:28:41,210 --> 00:28:38,100
the uh you know the lack of human

668
00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:41,220
contact that I have Beyond a fairly

669
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:44,340
small group so I'm not talking about

670
00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:47,760
Connection in that sense although for

671
00:28:54,289 --> 00:28:50,400
some people that connection is utterly

672
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:54,299
vital and utterly Central to their being

673
00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:57,360
I'm talking more of a kind of cosmic

674
00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:01,200
connection a feeling of being integrated

675
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:04,200
into a wider reality because we're made

676
00:29:09,529 --> 00:29:06,720
of the very same stuff as everything

677
00:29:13,370 --> 00:29:09,539
else in reality we're Guided by the

678
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:13,380
various same laws as everything else in

679
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:16,559
reality we emerged by processes that

680
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:18,720
stretch from the beginning until today

681
00:29:24,409 --> 00:29:22,440
as every other structure in the cosmos

682
00:29:26,930 --> 00:29:24,419
has as well

683
00:29:30,110 --> 00:29:26,940
and so if you take that in fully enough

684
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:30,120
and in the right light it makes you feel

685
00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:32,640
part of the fabric of reality

686
00:29:38,570 --> 00:29:35,640
and I think that's the connection that

687
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:38,580
to me is the one that has proven to be

688
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:40,559
the most important

689
00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:42,480
have psychedelics informed either your

690
00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:45,240
physics or your metaphysics

691
00:29:49,669 --> 00:29:47,580
I can't really say in fact it's not

692
00:29:52,250 --> 00:29:49,679
completely clear to me whether or not

693
00:29:55,250 --> 00:29:52,260
I've actually ever had a psychedelic

694
00:29:57,289 --> 00:29:55,260
experience no doubt you're referring to

695
00:30:00,590 --> 00:29:57,299
the fact that on in some more recent

696
00:30:04,909 --> 00:30:00,600
interviews I've opened up about certain

697
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:04,919
experiences uh that um at the time were

698
00:30:11,210 --> 00:30:08,399
absolutely terrifying and in

699
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:11,220
conversation with people who know far

700
00:30:17,810 --> 00:30:15,360
more about this Arena than I do

701
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,820
um their view is you know anything that

702
00:30:22,130 --> 00:30:19,440
takes your mind to a different place

703
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:22,140
that ultimately you learn something from

704
00:30:28,010 --> 00:30:26,399
fits within the genre of exploration of

705
00:30:30,409 --> 00:30:28,020
Altered States Of Consciousness so

706
00:30:32,510 --> 00:30:30,419
framing it in that way

707
00:30:34,909 --> 00:30:32,520
um yeah I would say that

708
00:30:39,289 --> 00:30:34,919
um I have not had many such experiences

709
00:30:42,409 --> 00:30:39,299
but the the few that I have had

710
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:42,419
um I guess gave me the deepest sense of

711
00:30:50,090 --> 00:30:47,760
how fragile ordinary cognition and

712
00:30:52,789 --> 00:30:50,100
ordinary experiences you introduce a few

713
00:30:56,889 --> 00:30:52,799
little molecules into the mind

714
00:30:59,930 --> 00:30:56,899
and these molecules radically change

715
00:31:02,750 --> 00:30:59,940
your experience I mean that's

716
00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:02,760
mind-blowing isn't it I mean you know

717
00:31:06,649 --> 00:31:04,860
cognitively we all know that what's

718
00:31:09,049 --> 00:31:06,659
happening inside of our head is just the

719
00:31:12,049 --> 00:31:09,059
cascading motion of particles going

720
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:12,059
through our brains neurons firing it's

721
00:31:16,490 --> 00:31:14,460
all describable at the level of

722
00:31:19,250 --> 00:31:16,500
particulate motion inside of our heads

723
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:19,260
okay good I got that cognitively now let

724
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:20,880
me just throw in a few more molecules

725
00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:24,000
and all of a sudden the experience

726
00:31:29,269 --> 00:31:25,740
changes radically

727
00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:29,279
and so everything that that we you

728
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:31,200
usually think of as defining reality

729
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:34,679
which is our experience in an intuitive

730
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:38,240
level can be not completely off kilter

731
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:42,000
through some molecules and that's a

732
00:31:48,409 --> 00:31:45,120
beautiful recognition and it opens you

733
00:31:50,690 --> 00:31:48,419
up to the realization that our

734
00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:50,700
experience is not tapping into the

735
00:31:59,210 --> 00:31:52,020
reality

736
00:32:02,690 --> 00:31:59,220
interpreting it and molding it and

737
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,700
shaping it in a manner that our brains

738
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:04,320
do because of how they form through

739
00:32:09,649 --> 00:32:06,480
evolution by natural selection across

740
00:32:13,010 --> 00:32:09,659
the eons right our brains are the way

741
00:32:15,710 --> 00:32:13,020
they are because our forebears survive

742
00:32:17,570 --> 00:32:15,720
and they survive because their brains

743
00:32:19,970 --> 00:32:17,580
were in a particular configuration and

744
00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:19,980
allowed them to better navigate the

745
00:32:26,149 --> 00:32:22,440
environment than their competitors

746
00:32:28,909 --> 00:32:26,159
and that brain interprets the world

747
00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:28,919
we can change that interpretation by

748
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:32,700
introducing new molecules and that is a

749
00:32:37,250 --> 00:32:33,600
deeply

750
00:32:38,930 --> 00:32:37,260
profound and eye-opening experience

751
00:32:41,149 --> 00:32:38,940
if you could solve one problem an

752
00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:41,159
academic one so not let's take off the

753
00:32:45,289 --> 00:32:43,919
table world hunger or peace and so on

754
00:32:47,149 --> 00:32:45,299
which one

755
00:32:48,769 --> 00:32:47,159
and so this includes the hard problem of

756
00:32:51,889 --> 00:32:48,779
Consciousness or philosophical problems

757
00:32:55,250 --> 00:32:51,899
as well as physics ones which one do you

758
00:32:58,370 --> 00:32:55,260
most want solved by you

759
00:33:02,570 --> 00:32:58,380
uh well it's interesting and part of my

760
00:33:05,690 --> 00:33:02,580
answer will depend on what the answer is

761
00:33:08,330 --> 00:33:05,700
so I think that the solution to the hard

762
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,340
problem of Consciousness I suspect it's

763
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:10,799
not going to be very interesting

764
00:33:15,070 --> 00:33:12,960
I suspect that the solution to the hard

765
00:33:18,889 --> 00:33:15,080
problem of Consciousness will be

766
00:33:22,130 --> 00:33:18,899
Consciousness just is it's a quality

767
00:33:25,310 --> 00:33:22,140
that emerges when matter takes on a

768
00:33:28,370 --> 00:33:25,320
particular organized form and undergoes

769
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:28,380
certain very orderly and organized

770
00:33:32,330 --> 00:33:30,600
procedures and phenomena

771
00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:32,340
and if that's the answer and I think

772
00:33:37,250 --> 00:33:35,220
that is likely to be the answer then

773
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:37,260
count me out in terms of wanting to

774
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:38,399
solve it I think that may be the

775
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:39,840
solution if it's more interesting than

776
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:42,720
that if there's some Consciousness feel

777
00:33:48,049 --> 00:33:45,360
that you know various religions talk

778
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:48,059
about or or something that we can't even

779
00:33:53,630 --> 00:33:50,640
imagine and that's the root of

780
00:33:55,549 --> 00:33:53,640
Consciousness yes then I'd love I'd love

781
00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:55,559
to be part of the journey to solve it

782
00:34:00,409 --> 00:33:57,480
that way but assuming that it's the more

783
00:34:02,930 --> 00:34:00,419
boring but nevertheless you know

784
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:02,940
profoundly important Solution on what

785
00:34:07,490 --> 00:34:04,799
the hard problem is then the other

786
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:07,500
questions that I would really love to be

787
00:34:13,129 --> 00:34:11,040
part of finding the solution of is

788
00:34:16,190 --> 00:34:13,139
what is time

789
00:34:18,770 --> 00:34:16,200
is it just a secondary feature of the

790
00:34:21,050 --> 00:34:18,780
world that we human beings find useful

791
00:34:24,169 --> 00:34:21,060
in order to organize our perceptions of

792
00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:24,179
the world or is time more fundamentally

793
00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:27,240
woven into the fabric of reality you

794
00:34:31,810 --> 00:34:29,700
know is there a realm of reality in

795
00:34:35,570 --> 00:34:31,820
which there's no conception of time

796
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:35,580
because the conditions simply have not

797
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:38,879
gelled to the point where the conception

798
00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:42,060
of time can even emerge or is there

799
00:34:46,849 --> 00:34:44,580
always a notion of time because it's

800
00:34:49,369 --> 00:34:46,859
just fundamentally part of how reality

801
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:49,379
is constructed I'd say that would be the

802
00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:53,280
the one big one and then a lot allied

803
00:34:58,910 --> 00:34:56,460
with that you know look I'd love to know

804
00:35:02,089 --> 00:34:58,920
what the unified theory is Right I'd

805
00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:02,099
love to know what

806
00:35:07,070 --> 00:35:04,520
a thousand years from now

807
00:35:09,650 --> 00:35:07,080
kindergarteners are going to learn in

808
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:09,660
their course on unified field theory if

809
00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:12,240
that's the answer you know what is it

810
00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:15,240
and where does it come from

811
00:35:20,089 --> 00:35:17,940
we can have a final Theory whatever it

812
00:35:21,290 --> 00:35:20,099
is general relativity plus Quantum and

813
00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:21,300
can't what or maybe it's radically

814
00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:23,339
different but whatever that ultimate

815
00:35:27,230 --> 00:35:24,900
theory is

816
00:35:31,370 --> 00:35:27,240
where did it come from

817
00:35:33,890 --> 00:35:31,380
did someone in some super simulation

818
00:35:36,910 --> 00:35:33,900
dream it up and we were just living out

819
00:35:39,950 --> 00:35:36,920
or where in the world do these

820
00:35:42,829 --> 00:35:39,960
fundamental laws and regularities and

821
00:35:45,290 --> 00:35:42,839
patterns come from in essence really why

822
00:35:47,089 --> 00:35:45,300
is there something rather than nothing I

823
00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:47,099
mean it can't really get deeper than

824
00:35:52,609 --> 00:35:49,560
that and by nothing I don't mean you

825
00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:52,619
know empty space I don't mean nothing in

826
00:35:58,310 --> 00:35:54,660
the sense of a void

827
00:36:01,370 --> 00:35:58,320
I mean truly nothing no space no time no

828
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:01,380
quantum mechanics no mathematics no

829
00:36:06,890 --> 00:36:04,320
platonic realm like why isn't there

830
00:36:11,450 --> 00:36:06,900
nothing it seems that there could be

831
00:36:13,010 --> 00:36:11,460
nothing so how did it transpire that

832
00:36:15,470 --> 00:36:13,020
there is a something

833
00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:15,480
that's the big one

834
00:36:21,530 --> 00:36:17,940
do you think that a true toe or a good

835
00:36:23,210 --> 00:36:21,540
toe is one that explains itself

836
00:36:26,270 --> 00:36:23,220
well

837
00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:26,280
whenever you talk about a theory of

838
00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:27,900
everything and let me I will frame it

839
00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:29,880
that way I never use the word toe myself

840
00:36:33,650 --> 00:36:31,920
but you know whenever you talk about a

841
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:33,660
Theory of Everything

842
00:36:39,470 --> 00:36:36,960
you have to say to yourself what is

843
00:36:42,410 --> 00:36:39,480
embraced by everything

844
00:36:44,329 --> 00:36:42,420
usually when we physicists throw it away

845
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:44,339
throw around not throw away when we

846
00:36:48,530 --> 00:36:45,839
throw around the term Theory of

847
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:48,540
Everything we usually mean it in a very

848
00:36:53,450 --> 00:36:51,359
limited everything we usually mean you

849
00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:53,460
know the particles and the laws you know

850
00:36:58,849 --> 00:36:56,220
the ingredients and the rules that's

851
00:37:01,730 --> 00:36:58,859
what we mean by everything but given

852
00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:01,740
that one can say but why are there any

853
00:37:08,089 --> 00:37:05,640
particles why are there any rules and so

854
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,099
yeah your way of framing it that if that

855
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:10,079
Theory of Everything could somehow

856
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:13,440
establish its own inevitability

857
00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:16,140
if that Theory of Everything somehow has

858
00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:19,380
built within it that the lack of

859
00:37:24,890 --> 00:37:21,540
existence of that theory of everything

860
00:37:27,290 --> 00:37:24,900
would somehow be itself a logical

861
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:27,300
inconsistency

862
00:37:32,089 --> 00:37:29,820
so that reality could not have this

863
00:37:36,170 --> 00:37:32,099
Theory of Everything because reality is

864
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:36,180
we believe in some sense consistent that

865
00:37:42,890 --> 00:37:39,680
would that would be deeply compelling

866
00:37:44,329 --> 00:37:42,900
Dyson conjectured that the girdle

867
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:44,339
incompleteness theorem or one of them

868
00:37:48,170 --> 00:37:46,320
applied to physics and so we may never

869
00:37:49,790 --> 00:37:48,180
know at all I don't recall his argument

870
00:37:51,950 --> 00:37:49,800
but I'm sure you've heard an argument

871
00:37:53,210 --> 00:37:51,960
akin to this can you spell it out for

872
00:37:56,690 --> 00:37:53,220
the audience and then where do you stand

873
00:37:58,190 --> 00:37:56,700
on it you know I have to say I have

874
00:38:01,609 --> 00:37:58,200
struggled myself

875
00:38:05,630 --> 00:38:01,619
for a long time

876
00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:05,640
to really know or at least have a feel

877
00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:08,940
for the relevance of girdle's ideas

878
00:38:13,790 --> 00:38:12,119
when it comes to the laws of physics

879
00:38:16,609 --> 00:38:13,800
and um

880
00:38:19,310 --> 00:38:16,619
there was a time when I tried to

881
00:38:20,829 --> 00:38:19,320
convince myself that

882
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:20,839
because

883
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:24,480
girdles theorem itself relies upon

884
00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:28,079
assumptions could we modify the

885
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:31,140
assumptions in such a way that

886
00:38:36,109 --> 00:38:33,780
the new assumptions could be relevant to

887
00:38:38,030 --> 00:38:36,119
the universe but the conclusion that

888
00:38:39,589 --> 00:38:38,040
girdle came to would no longer be

889
00:38:41,150 --> 00:38:39,599
relevant because the assumptions had

890
00:38:44,770 --> 00:38:41,160
changed

891
00:38:49,130 --> 00:38:44,780
and there are a handful of relatively

892
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:49,140
straightforward ways to do that

893
00:38:53,150 --> 00:38:50,880
um and frankly I don't even haven't

894
00:38:55,310 --> 00:38:53,160
thought about it in detail in quite some

895
00:38:58,569 --> 00:38:55,320
time but I I remember going through and

896
00:39:02,630 --> 00:38:58,579
saying aha all we have to do is imagine

897
00:39:04,670 --> 00:39:02,640
a universe in which this is not true and

898
00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:04,680
that Universe could be our unit like

899
00:39:10,370 --> 00:39:07,260
para compact logic or I mean there are

900
00:39:13,730 --> 00:39:10,380
ways in which you can go beyond the

901
00:39:16,490 --> 00:39:13,740
limited set of assumptions that girdle

902
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:16,500
had and so I

903
00:39:24,530 --> 00:39:20,160
more or less have convinced myself that

904
00:39:28,370 --> 00:39:24,540
girdle's ideas need not imply that we

905
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:28,380
will somehow fundamentally be in an

906
00:39:33,290 --> 00:39:30,780
undecidable situation when it comes to

907
00:39:37,550 --> 00:39:33,300
understanding the Deep laws of the

908
00:39:40,190 --> 00:39:37,560
universe it doesn't mean that girdle's

909
00:39:41,630 --> 00:39:40,200
ideas might not apply they could but

910
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:41,640
they don't have to

911
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:44,760
and without realization I became less

912
00:39:51,770 --> 00:39:48,240
interested in in really puzzling because

913
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:51,780
now we're in a realm that's so esoteric

914
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:54,240
and Abstract relative to the kind of

915
00:39:59,390 --> 00:39:56,640
concrete problems like what's the dark

916
00:40:02,810 --> 00:39:59,400
matter and what's the dark energy and

917
00:40:05,450 --> 00:40:02,820
you know is there just a unified theory

918
00:40:08,270 --> 00:40:05,460
of the particles of matter that we have

919
00:40:12,650 --> 00:40:08,280
discovered it just felt

920
00:40:14,750 --> 00:40:12,660
20 steps removed from those kind of deep

921
00:40:15,890 --> 00:40:14,760
but really Hands-On questions that I

922
00:40:19,490 --> 00:40:15,900
haven't spent a whole lot of time

923
00:40:21,950 --> 00:40:19,500
thinking about it since speaking of time

924
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:21,960
do you believe time to be well maybe you

925
00:40:26,990 --> 00:40:24,000
don't let's not say believe when you

926
00:40:28,490 --> 00:40:27,000
were playing with some ideas earlier and

927
00:40:30,050 --> 00:40:28,500
you're saying well time may be emergent

928
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:30,060
do you also believe space to be emergent

929
00:40:32,750 --> 00:40:31,440
do you believe space time itself is

930
00:40:37,310 --> 00:40:32,760
emergent

931
00:40:39,410 --> 00:40:37,320
it's hard for me to imagine that space

932
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:39,420
is not emerging too

933
00:40:44,810 --> 00:40:42,000
again anybody who's uh spent a little

934
00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:44,820
time thinking about the insights from

935
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:46,520
Einstein on

936
00:40:53,569 --> 00:40:49,760
recognizes that space and time are so

937
00:40:56,690 --> 00:40:53,579
deeply and intricately interwoven into

938
00:40:59,270 --> 00:40:56,700
the fabric of space-time that sort of

939
00:41:01,910 --> 00:40:59,280
pulling one apart and imagining it has

940
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:01,920
different properties space and time have

941
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:04,079
different properties it's not impossible

942
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:06,720
but it does fly in the face of pretty

943
00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:08,160
much everything we've learned in the

944
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:09,839
last hundred years so

945
00:41:16,310 --> 00:41:13,020
I certainly do Envision that if there's

946
00:41:18,349 --> 00:41:16,320
a realm of reality in which time does

947
00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:18,359
not apply because as we're saying before

948
00:41:23,810 --> 00:41:21,720
the conditions haven't yet allowed for a

949
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:23,820
conception of time to emerge the same

950
00:41:30,410 --> 00:41:26,660
would almost certainly be true of space

951
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:30,420
so the real way of saying it is is there

952
00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:32,160
a realm of reality in which there's no

953
00:41:37,790 --> 00:41:34,260
conception of space-time

954
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:37,800
and and it's hard for me to imagine what

955
00:41:44,750 --> 00:41:40,020
that is but that's because I've got this

956
00:41:49,130 --> 00:41:44,760
brain that is constrained by what my

957
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:49,140
ancestors did and that brain is one that

958
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:53,280
is so tied to a conception of reality in

959
00:41:58,250 --> 00:41:55,920
which space and time are the

960
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:58,260
architecture within which

961
00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:01,200
events take place that it's really hard

962
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:04,320
for us to think about a reality in which

963
00:42:10,370 --> 00:42:08,160
there isn't space time and so I I wish I

964
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:10,380
could give some really good uh example

965
00:42:17,450 --> 00:42:13,920
or insight into what that would be like

966
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:17,460
but it would be some kind of reality in

967
00:42:22,310 --> 00:42:19,680
which the language that we use would not

968
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:22,320
talk about when things are happening and

969
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:24,000
the language that we use would not talk

970
00:42:29,150 --> 00:42:26,760
about where things are happening the

971
00:42:32,569 --> 00:42:29,160
language would somehow be

972
00:42:34,609 --> 00:42:32,579
beneath that more fundamental than that

973
00:42:37,490 --> 00:42:34,619
and it's not that scientists don't have

974
00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:37,500
some ideas for what this might be like

975
00:42:43,790 --> 00:42:40,440
but I'd say that we do lack

976
00:42:47,750 --> 00:42:43,800
the Deep picture and the Deep story of

977
00:42:51,770 --> 00:42:47,760
how we would really articulate and

978
00:42:53,150 --> 00:42:51,780
navigate a reality absent space-time

979
00:42:56,690 --> 00:42:53,160
have you had a chance to go through

980
00:42:59,809 --> 00:42:56,700
wolfram's Theory his project on physics

981
00:43:00,770 --> 00:42:59,819
I wish I had you know yeah I mean you

982
00:43:06,290 --> 00:43:00,780
know

983
00:43:10,250 --> 00:43:06,300
and he's a friend and um

984
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:10,260
we talk about things on occasion

985
00:43:14,510 --> 00:43:13,200
and um I wish I had more time to to

986
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:14,520
spend with him because it's always

987
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:16,560
Illuminating when we do spend some time

988
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:18,000
together

989
00:43:24,890 --> 00:43:20,640
but I've I've not

990
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:24,900
I don't feel like I fully grasp the

991
00:43:32,510 --> 00:43:28,319
approach that he's taking

992
00:43:34,130 --> 00:43:32,520
um and why I oh well well I can aptly

993
00:43:37,069 --> 00:43:34,140
throw this on myself

994
00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:37,079
um so it could well be limitations in my

995
00:43:41,390 --> 00:43:39,300
own thinking and limitations the amount

996
00:43:46,430 --> 00:43:41,400
of energy and effort that I've expended

997
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:46,440
to understand his approach more fully

998
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:49,680
um but I get stuck on trying to really

999
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:53,520
understand whether the formalism as he

1000
00:43:57,550 --> 00:43:54,960
envisions it

1001
00:44:01,130 --> 00:43:57,560
is it actually fundamentally different

1002
00:44:04,250 --> 00:44:01,140
from the more traditional formalism he

1003
00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:04,260
would say yes as far as I can tell but

1004
00:44:10,190 --> 00:44:07,680
as I have looked at it on occasion it

1005
00:44:12,650 --> 00:44:10,200
has struck me that it's not obvious to

1006
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,660
me that it is as different as He

1007
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:14,880
suggests and again I could be wrong on

1008
00:44:21,050 --> 00:44:17,040
this and it could be that I just haven't

1009
00:44:24,609 --> 00:44:21,060
put enough effort or energy into it I'm

1010
00:44:28,690 --> 00:44:24,619
glad that he's pursuing his approach

1011
00:44:31,730 --> 00:44:28,700
it's not within the confines of the

1012
00:44:33,349 --> 00:44:31,740
traditional established environment is

1013
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:33,359
not doing it inside of a physics

1014
00:44:38,750 --> 00:44:35,760
department or math department you know

1015
00:44:41,809 --> 00:44:38,760
he has the resources and and and the

1016
00:44:43,849 --> 00:44:41,819
creative energies to make his own

1017
00:44:47,690 --> 00:44:43,859
environment and find his own

1018
00:44:51,170 --> 00:44:47,700
collaborators and and more power to

1019
00:44:53,329 --> 00:44:51,180
anybody who who has the capacity to do

1020
00:44:57,710 --> 00:44:53,339
that whether it's going to Bear the

1021
00:45:00,290 --> 00:44:57,720
fruit that he envisions I don't know but

1022
00:45:02,809 --> 00:45:00,300
I'd say the same thing about what we're

1023
00:45:06,130 --> 00:45:02,819
doing here like we've been beating down

1024
00:45:09,589 --> 00:45:06,140
on string theory you know since you know

1025
00:45:12,829 --> 00:45:09,599
1984 at least you know the the big first

1026
00:45:14,990 --> 00:45:12,839
Revolution but since 1968 if you want to

1027
00:45:18,109 --> 00:45:15,000
go further back to the first glimmers of

1028
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:18,119
string theory and where are we now 2023

1029
00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:20,880
that's a lot of years right so you can

1030
00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:23,700
say the same thing you know so so I

1031
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:27,359
don't feel qualified to really judge the

1032
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:30,240
approach but I I just feel that I

1033
00:45:35,630 --> 00:45:33,119
haven't fully wrapped my head around

1034
00:45:38,569 --> 00:45:35,640
whether or not it's fundamentally

1035
00:45:41,210 --> 00:45:38,579
different from what we do

1036
00:45:43,309 --> 00:45:41,220
quite a few thoughts firstly what

1037
00:45:47,150 --> 00:45:43,319
progress has been made in string theory

1038
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:47,160
in the past say two decades

1039
00:45:53,569 --> 00:45:50,880
yeah well that's a a nice big chunk of

1040
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:53,579
time and I'd say you know the the big

1041
00:46:00,410 --> 00:45:57,599
thing in the last two decades has been

1042
00:46:02,569 --> 00:46:00,420
the the recognition

1043
00:46:06,530 --> 00:46:02,579
that

1044
00:46:08,329 --> 00:46:06,540
there's a connection between gravity and

1045
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:08,339
quantum mechanics

1046
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:10,800
that I don't think we sufficiently

1047
00:46:18,349 --> 00:46:15,599
appreciated 20 25 years ago I mean I

1048
00:46:20,510 --> 00:46:18,359
mean take my book just as As One Moment

1049
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:20,520
In Time a snapshot in the elegant

1050
00:46:27,470 --> 00:46:23,760
Universe I was published in 1999.

1051
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:27,480
and in that book I I very clearly lay

1052
00:46:31,849 --> 00:46:29,040
out there's this Theory called general

1053
00:46:32,809 --> 00:46:31,859
relativity describing Gravity the big

1054
00:46:35,630 --> 00:46:32,819
stuff

1055
00:46:37,730 --> 00:46:35,640
I lay out how there is this other Theory

1056
00:46:40,490 --> 00:46:37,740
called quantum mechanics describing the

1057
00:46:42,890 --> 00:46:40,500
small stuff and we want to put them all

1058
00:46:44,990 --> 00:46:42,900
together to have a unified theory of the

1059
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:45,000
big n the small but we're having trouble

1060
00:46:49,550 --> 00:46:47,760
doing that and then I go into the book

1061
00:46:51,890 --> 00:46:49,560
and how String Theory seems to be making

1062
00:46:54,890 --> 00:46:51,900
progress and putting the big and the

1063
00:46:56,569 --> 00:46:54,900
small together if I was writing that

1064
00:46:59,569 --> 00:46:56,579
book today and in some sense I am

1065
00:47:02,329 --> 00:46:59,579
because I'm adding a chapter for the

1066
00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:02,339
25th anniversary of the elegant universe

1067
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:04,380
and and one of the things that I'm

1068
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:06,540
emphasizing is

1069
00:47:11,809 --> 00:47:09,119
there's now a lot of evidence

1070
00:47:13,790 --> 00:47:11,819
that gravity and quantum mechanics in

1071
00:47:17,329 --> 00:47:13,800
some sense

1072
00:47:21,170 --> 00:47:17,339
are kind of the same Theory they

1073
00:47:22,970 --> 00:47:21,180
are already in some strange sense

1074
00:47:26,750 --> 00:47:22,980
combined

1075
00:47:31,069 --> 00:47:26,760
and this was completely unexpected based

1076
00:47:34,069 --> 00:47:31,079
on anything that we knew 20 or so 20

1077
00:47:37,069 --> 00:47:34,079
plus years ago so within for instance

1078
00:47:39,170 --> 00:47:37,079
general relativity there are these

1079
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:39,180
structures you made reference to one of

1080
00:47:44,030 --> 00:47:41,700
them earlier called wormholes which are

1081
00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:44,040
tunnels in the fabric of space going

1082
00:47:49,490 --> 00:47:47,280
from one space-time location to another

1083
00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:49,500
through a kind of shortcut that's

1084
00:47:53,809 --> 00:47:52,140
general relativity and quantum mechanics

1085
00:47:57,170 --> 00:47:53,819
there's this weird thing called quantum

1086
00:47:59,270 --> 00:47:57,180
entanglement where two widely separated

1087
00:48:00,710 --> 00:47:59,280
particles can act as though they're

1088
00:48:02,270 --> 00:48:00,720
right next to each other even though

1089
00:48:03,890 --> 00:48:02,280
they can be on opposite ends of the

1090
00:48:06,829 --> 00:48:03,900
universe

1091
00:48:09,589 --> 00:48:06,839
and really nobody thought there was a

1092
00:48:12,710 --> 00:48:09,599
connection between these two ideas until

1093
00:48:15,290 --> 00:48:12,720
people like Lenny suskind and Juan Mall

1094
00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:15,300
the Cena and and a variety of other

1095
00:48:19,069 --> 00:48:17,700
influential scientists too many to name

1096
00:48:21,790 --> 00:48:19,079
them all

1097
00:48:24,170 --> 00:48:21,800
gave evidence that in some sense

1098
00:48:25,849 --> 00:48:24,180
wormholes and entanglement are kind of

1099
00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:25,859
the same thing they kind of feel the

1100
00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:27,900
same if you think about it

1101
00:48:31,790 --> 00:48:30,420
Wormhole it's connecting one point in

1102
00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:31,800
space time with another through a

1103
00:48:35,690 --> 00:48:34,260
shortcut entanglement is connecting one

1104
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:35,700
particle in space time with another

1105
00:48:39,050 --> 00:48:37,560
particle in some sense through a

1106
00:48:40,190 --> 00:48:39,060
shortcut because they're acting as

1107
00:48:42,890 --> 00:48:40,200
though they're right next to each other

1108
00:48:45,410 --> 00:48:42,900
and so this is the beginning the tip of

1109
00:48:48,349 --> 00:48:45,420
an iceberg of a deep and and very

1110
00:48:49,970 --> 00:48:48,359
powerful story which is showing that

1111
00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:49,980
structures and general relativity and

1112
00:48:55,010 --> 00:48:52,200
structures and quantum mechanics are

1113
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:55,020
already deeply connected and deeply

1114
00:49:02,510 --> 00:48:58,880
entwined and so the unification program

1115
00:49:04,130 --> 00:49:02,520
May ultimately not be described in terms

1116
00:49:06,290 --> 00:49:04,140
of putting gravity and quantum mechanics

1117
00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:06,300
together the way I described it and many

1118
00:49:12,650 --> 00:49:09,420
did of course in the earlier days but it

1119
00:49:14,450 --> 00:49:12,660
may be more deeply understanding general

1120
00:49:16,010 --> 00:49:14,460
relativity more deeply understanding

1121
00:49:18,410 --> 00:49:16,020
quantum mechanics and more deeply

1122
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:18,420
understanding how they are part and

1123
00:49:24,589 --> 00:49:22,079
parcel of the same theoretical structure

1124
00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:24,599
so the recent results by Google of the

1125
00:49:30,770 --> 00:49:28,079
ER equals epr is that over hyped

1126
00:49:33,290 --> 00:49:30,780
is that under hyped I also can you

1127
00:49:35,650 --> 00:49:33,300
explain the results to the audience

1128
00:49:39,470 --> 00:49:35,660
yeah so this is a little bit

1129
00:49:43,609 --> 00:49:39,480
controversial there there have been some

1130
00:49:47,390 --> 00:49:43,619
um feathers ruffled by uh some some

1131
00:49:50,450 --> 00:49:47,400
recent activity and what the idea is

1132
00:49:53,809 --> 00:49:50,460
that if for instance what I said a

1133
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:53,819
moment ago is true that there's a deep

1134
00:49:57,589 --> 00:49:55,280
connection between

1135
00:50:00,770 --> 00:49:57,599
wormholes and general relativity and

1136
00:50:03,530 --> 00:50:00,780
entanglement in quantum physics then a

1137
00:50:06,530 --> 00:50:03,540
number of influential physicists pointed

1138
00:50:10,730 --> 00:50:06,540
out that by doing certain calculations

1139
00:50:11,650 --> 00:50:10,740
on a quantum computer you would in some

1140
00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:11,660
sense

1141
00:50:18,410 --> 00:50:15,420
be simulating

1142
00:50:20,990 --> 00:50:18,420
a wormhole in general relativity because

1143
00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:21,000
Quantum Computing is all about

1144
00:50:25,010 --> 00:50:23,520
leveraging quantum entanglement between

1145
00:50:29,450 --> 00:50:25,020
qubits

1146
00:50:32,030 --> 00:50:29,460
and so there was a recent paper and it

1147
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:32,040
was making use of the quantum

1148
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,000
computational capacities at Google

1149
00:50:41,870 --> 00:50:38,880
and I think the I think the

1150
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:41,880
um the kerfuffle is more about language

1151
00:50:47,390 --> 00:50:44,400
than anything else because some of the

1152
00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:47,400
folks who were carrying out this work

1153
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:50,400
this is like Maria spirapalu and and Joe

1154
00:50:57,170 --> 00:50:54,960
Lickin and Daniel Jefferson so on there

1155
00:50:59,809 --> 00:50:57,180
was at least some part of the

1156
00:51:04,150 --> 00:50:59,819
description which made it sound like

1157
00:51:07,250 --> 00:51:04,160
they claimed to have created a wormhole

1158
00:51:09,230 --> 00:51:07,260
in the quantum computer at Google that

1159
00:51:13,069 --> 00:51:09,240
actually created a wormhole by carrying

1160
00:51:15,230 --> 00:51:13,079
out this Quantum computation and and I

1161
00:51:18,109 --> 00:51:15,240
guess some people would be more

1162
00:51:20,750 --> 00:51:18,119
comfortable by saying they were modeling

1163
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:20,760
a wormhole or kind of simulating a

1164
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:23,280
wormhole as opposed to actually creating

1165
00:51:31,309 --> 00:51:26,880
a wormhole you know one comment I saw by

1166
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:31,319
the the really deeply insightful

1167
00:51:37,250 --> 00:51:34,559
um Quantum computational physicist Scott

1168
00:51:40,270 --> 00:51:37,260
Aronson was saying to say that you

1169
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:40,280
created a wormhole in in

1170
00:51:45,650 --> 00:51:42,960
undertaking this quantum computer

1171
00:51:47,390 --> 00:51:45,660
simulation would be tantamount to saying

1172
00:51:49,010 --> 00:51:47,400
that every time you drew a worm on a

1173
00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:49,020
piece of paper you created or almost

1174
00:51:54,530 --> 00:51:51,020
like how do you distinguish between

1175
00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:54,540
modeling something and the something

1176
00:52:01,370 --> 00:51:57,900
and I think that distinction perhaps

1177
00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:01,380
According to some was lost in some of

1178
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:02,160
the

1179
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:05,520
articulated

1180
00:52:12,650 --> 00:52:08,160
um but putting the the the controversy

1181
00:52:15,049 --> 00:52:12,660
or the bit of uh uh kerfuffle to the

1182
00:52:19,609 --> 00:52:15,059
side it's a very very interesting piece

1183
00:52:22,130 --> 00:52:19,619
of work in which doing a Quantum

1184
00:52:24,230 --> 00:52:22,140
computation and appropriately

1185
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:24,240
interpreting it you could see within

1186
00:52:31,490 --> 00:52:27,839
that computation the kinds of phenomenon

1187
00:52:34,670 --> 00:52:31,500
that you would associate with a wormhole

1188
00:52:37,069 --> 00:52:34,680
and that's a beautiful thing because it

1189
00:52:39,710 --> 00:52:37,079
now is a very concrete realization of

1190
00:52:41,150 --> 00:52:39,720
what I was saying before an answer to a

1191
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:41,160
question of what's new in the last 20

1192
00:52:46,130 --> 00:52:44,160
years what's new is here you're doing

1193
00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:46,140
something that's purely quantum

1194
00:52:51,170 --> 00:52:48,420
mechanical you're carrying out a Quantum

1195
00:52:52,910 --> 00:52:51,180
computation on a quantum computer and

1196
00:52:55,730 --> 00:52:52,920
then by analyzing it appropriately

1197
00:52:59,089 --> 00:52:55,740
you're saying oh my god look in there

1198
00:53:01,069 --> 00:52:59,099
we're seeing exactly what we'd expect in

1199
00:53:03,170 --> 00:53:01,079
a particular kind of wormhole

1200
00:53:05,329 --> 00:53:03,180
and so the connection between general

1201
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:05,339
relativity and quantum mechanics becomes

1202
00:53:09,650 --> 00:53:07,920
that much more apparent

1203
00:53:11,390 --> 00:53:09,660
the uncontroversial statement is that

1204
00:53:12,829 --> 00:53:11,400
they've simulated a wormhole or modeled

1205
00:53:15,530 --> 00:53:12,839
a wormhole

1206
00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:15,540
I don't want to speak at a turn because

1207
00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:19,200
I want to speak for either side of this

1208
00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:22,380
debate but I would say that I think

1209
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:25,920
that's the linchpin of some of the

1210
00:53:30,650 --> 00:53:29,040
controversy and so it feels less

1211
00:53:34,309 --> 00:53:30,660
important to me

1212
00:53:37,010 --> 00:53:34,319
when thought of in that light I'm just

1213
00:53:39,650 --> 00:53:37,020
interested in how curious and wonderful

1214
00:53:42,890 --> 00:53:39,660
it is that general relativity and

1215
00:53:45,950 --> 00:53:42,900
quantum mechanics are brushing up

1216
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:45,960
against each other in a manner that we

1217
00:53:50,089 --> 00:53:48,480
really wouldn't have anticipated with

1218
00:53:51,470 --> 00:53:50,099
the level of our understanding 20 25

1219
00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:51,480
years ago

1220
00:53:55,309 --> 00:53:53,520
okay now speaking about what's overhyped

1221
00:53:56,990 --> 00:53:55,319
or potentially under hyped what are some

1222
00:54:00,410 --> 00:53:57,000
of the applications of category Theory

1223
00:54:04,490 --> 00:54:02,690
oh goodness gracious wrong person to

1224
00:54:07,190 --> 00:54:04,500
talk about you know I've read some of

1225
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:07,200
the uh the papers on this stuff but I

1226
00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:09,359
don't feel sufficiently expert to weigh

1227
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:12,480
in on that at all so sorry all right no

1228
00:54:18,530 --> 00:54:15,839
problem so there are different toes like

1229
00:54:21,290 --> 00:54:18,540
Garrett lisi's like Eric Weinstein from

1230
00:54:23,089 --> 00:54:21,300
Peter white and I'm curious

1231
00:54:25,549 --> 00:54:23,099
have you had a chance to look into any

1232
00:54:28,490 --> 00:54:25,559
of those like lisi's E8 or or Eric

1233
00:54:30,910 --> 00:54:28,500
Weinstein's geometric Unity or Peter

1234
00:54:33,290 --> 00:54:30,920
White's euclidean twister

1235
00:54:34,430 --> 00:54:33,300
I didn't even know that Peter Boyd had

1236
00:54:36,410 --> 00:54:34,440
put forward

1237
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:36,420
um a particular idea so again I'll have

1238
00:54:41,870 --> 00:54:39,839
to uh claim ignorance on that front but

1239
00:54:43,309 --> 00:54:41,880
um the Garrett leasy stuff unless

1240
00:54:46,430 --> 00:54:43,319
there's something radically new in

1241
00:54:49,130 --> 00:54:46,440
recent years certainly when he first

1242
00:54:52,250 --> 00:54:49,140
gained a little bit of attention for the

1243
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:52,260
ideas he was put forward

1244
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:55,440
um you know I I have to say I relied

1245
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,520
upon a good friend who I've known for 40

1246
00:55:04,190 --> 00:55:01,440
years perhaps

1247
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:04,200
um Jacques disler at a University of

1248
00:55:11,990 --> 00:55:07,440
Texas who did a wonderful series of blog

1249
00:55:14,510 --> 00:55:12,000
posts that analyze the claims and made

1250
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:14,520
it quite clear that there wasn't a whole

1251
00:55:18,530 --> 00:55:16,559
lot there there when it came to the

1252
00:55:20,690 --> 00:55:18,540
Gareth leasy stuff and that that

1253
00:55:23,329 --> 00:55:20,700
certainly convinced me that it really

1254
00:55:25,130 --> 00:55:23,339
wasn't worth my time to delve into it

1255
00:55:28,250 --> 00:55:25,140
you know life is short if you chase

1256
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:28,260
every idea that someone raises the flag

1257
00:55:33,109 --> 00:55:30,780
on and says here it is you wind up never

1258
00:55:35,270 --> 00:55:33,119
being able to do any of your own work

1259
00:55:36,650 --> 00:55:35,280
um and what was the other one oh oh the

1260
00:55:39,890 --> 00:55:36,660
wine shark Weinstein I don't know much

1261
00:55:43,309 --> 00:55:39,900
yeah I don't know much about again in

1262
00:55:45,230 --> 00:55:43,319
any detail so I I can't comment but I

1263
00:55:48,890 --> 00:55:45,240
guess you know I've not I've not

1264
00:55:51,230 --> 00:55:48,900
encountered uh anything beyond quantum

1265
00:55:55,130 --> 00:55:51,240
gravity which I don't work on I don't I

1266
00:55:57,829 --> 00:55:55,140
don't study but I certainly respect

1267
00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:57,839
um the results that that Community has

1268
00:56:03,470 --> 00:56:00,720
put forward and you know

1269
00:56:06,170 --> 00:56:03,480
um while some people take exception with

1270
00:56:09,049 --> 00:56:06,180
certain things that Lee smullen one of

1271
00:56:11,450 --> 00:56:09,059
the leaders of that field has said about

1272
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:11,460
String Theory I I sort of don't take

1273
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:14,160
those things personally and I focus more

1274
00:56:20,450 --> 00:56:18,000
on on the ideas and I think they've done

1275
00:56:22,490 --> 00:56:20,460
some some wonderful work in

1276
00:56:25,609 --> 00:56:22,500
understanding connections between

1277
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:25,619
General activity and and quantum

1278
00:56:30,710 --> 00:56:28,559
mechanics but you know one would say

1279
00:56:33,170 --> 00:56:30,720
that I'm biased I don't see anything

1280
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:33,180
that's achieved the level of refinement

1281
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:36,720
and sophistication and insight that

1282
00:56:44,329 --> 00:56:40,559
string theory has provided nothing that

1283
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:44,339
I've seen remotely holds a candle to the

1284
00:56:49,490 --> 00:56:47,040
kinds of insights especially the ones

1285
00:56:51,410 --> 00:56:49,500
that we were just talking about a moment

1286
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:51,420
ago which are which are both deep and

1287
00:56:58,069 --> 00:56:54,240
surprising but you know even before that

1288
00:57:00,670 --> 00:56:58,079
you know the capacity to have a theory

1289
00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:00,680
that is

1290
00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:03,359
quantum mechanical and has general

1291
00:57:07,790 --> 00:57:05,040
relativity embedded

1292
00:57:10,370 --> 00:57:07,800
and is able to have within it the

1293
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:10,380
symmetries of the standard model of

1294
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:12,240
particle physics and the particles in

1295
00:57:16,970 --> 00:57:14,640
the standard model and naturally is

1296
00:57:19,970 --> 00:57:16,980
within their Theory that's able to give

1297
00:57:22,670 --> 00:57:19,980
us insight into

1298
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:22,680
things like the entropy of black holes

1299
00:57:27,650 --> 00:57:25,200
which again you know Loop quantum

1300
00:57:31,089 --> 00:57:27,660
gravity has its own insights but I think

1301
00:57:34,609 --> 00:57:31,099
the string theoretic ones are are deeply

1302
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:34,619
impressive and so there have been so

1303
00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:37,920
many small achievements along the way

1304
00:57:43,069 --> 00:57:40,800
yeah we haven't gotten the big one which

1305
00:57:46,670 --> 00:57:43,079
would be an experiment that somehow

1306
00:57:48,530 --> 00:57:46,680
reveals that this Approach To Nature is

1307
00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:48,540
the right approach but there have been

1308
00:57:54,950 --> 00:57:51,240
so many achievements over the course of

1309
00:57:58,069 --> 00:57:54,960
the last 50 years that I haven't feel

1310
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:58,079
compelled to look for another approach

1311
00:58:04,190 --> 00:58:01,920
because we've got a rich wondrous deep

1312
00:58:05,870 --> 00:58:04,200
compelling theory that we're in the

1313
00:58:10,670 --> 00:58:05,880
midst of unraveling

1314
00:58:13,609 --> 00:58:10,680
and so that feels to me a very strong

1315
00:58:16,190 --> 00:58:13,619
pull relative to you know somebody comes

1316
00:58:18,410 --> 00:58:16,200
up with some idea raises their hand and

1317
00:58:20,510 --> 00:58:18,420
said now look at what I have got and

1318
00:58:22,670 --> 00:58:20,520
that to me I'm glad there are people who

1319
00:58:24,849 --> 00:58:22,680
are doing it but it's typically not the

1320
00:58:27,770 --> 00:58:24,859
thing will grab my attention away from

1321
00:58:30,470 --> 00:58:27,780
the focus work that that I'm doing that

1322
00:58:33,290 --> 00:58:30,480
we're doing as a community what would be

1323
00:58:35,569 --> 00:58:33,300
the other people in the ring that you

1324
00:58:37,970 --> 00:58:35,579
see as competent boxers that are

1325
00:58:40,190 --> 00:58:37,980
opponents to string theory or or perhaps

1326
00:58:41,390 --> 00:58:40,200
it's not a competition they're all

1327
00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:41,400
clearing for the same they're all

1328
00:58:45,109 --> 00:58:43,200
fighting toward the same goal so what

1329
00:58:46,910 --> 00:58:45,119
else is there so there's Loop but again

1330
00:58:49,069 --> 00:58:46,920
that's not a toll per se it's quantum

1331
00:58:50,510 --> 00:58:49,079
gravity approach unless there's some

1332
00:58:51,710 --> 00:58:50,520
other development I'm unaware of do you

1333
00:58:54,049 --> 00:58:51,720
mind listing some

1334
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:54,059
no I wouldn't I I guess people say to

1335
00:58:58,670 --> 00:58:56,160
this first of all like I said before I I

1336
00:59:00,470 --> 00:58:58,680
typically don't use the language

1337
00:59:03,049 --> 00:59:00,480
toe or Theory of Everything and it's not

1338
00:59:05,750 --> 00:59:03,059
because of the um the abbreviation of

1339
00:59:09,049 --> 00:59:05,760
the acronym I think that the whole

1340
00:59:12,289 --> 00:59:09,059
conception of everything is an odd one

1341
00:59:15,289 --> 00:59:12,299
so when you talk about Loop quantum

1342
00:59:18,589 --> 00:59:15,299
gravity you know if you have a theory

1343
00:59:21,170 --> 00:59:18,599
that is able to embrace general

1344
00:59:24,170 --> 00:59:21,180
relativity and quantum mechanics in some

1345
00:59:25,309 --> 00:59:24,180
calculable and coherent mathematical

1346
00:59:27,710 --> 00:59:25,319
form

1347
00:59:30,890 --> 00:59:27,720
that's huge right I wouldn't say that it

1348
00:59:33,530 --> 00:59:30,900
somehow is subordinate to string theory

1349
00:59:35,870 --> 00:59:33,540
because within String Theory you know

1350
00:59:37,849 --> 00:59:35,880
perhaps you can also put the standard

1351
00:59:40,490 --> 00:59:37,859
model particle physics most direct you

1352
00:59:43,849 --> 00:59:40,500
know if Loop quantum gravity works you

1353
00:59:46,609 --> 00:59:43,859
will be able to use it as an overarching

1354
00:59:49,010 --> 00:59:46,619
framework and then put in quote unquote

1355
00:59:53,390 --> 00:59:49,020
everything else put in matter I have no

1356
00:59:57,049 --> 00:59:53,400
doubt that that this is a a potential

1357
00:59:58,190 --> 00:59:57,059
future if indeed Loop quantum gravity is

1358
01:00:00,349 --> 00:59:58,200
the right way to go so I wouldn't

1359
01:00:01,849 --> 01:00:00,359
somehow diminish it and say well string

1360
01:00:03,109 --> 01:00:01,859
theory is a theory of everything and

1361
01:00:05,930 --> 01:00:03,119
loop quantum gravity is not I don't I

1362
01:00:08,990 --> 01:00:05,940
don't think that way sure at all I mean

1363
01:00:10,730 --> 01:00:09,000
to me the big question is you know what

1364
01:00:12,170 --> 01:00:10,740
do we do about general relativity and

1365
01:00:14,270 --> 01:00:12,180
quantum mechanics and what's becoming

1366
01:00:17,150 --> 01:00:14,280
clear as I mentioned before

1367
01:00:19,430 --> 01:00:17,160
is that the idea of trying to meld them

1368
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:19,440
together May itself have been somewhat

1369
01:00:25,270 --> 01:00:22,079
wrong-headed they may already be melded

1370
01:00:29,150 --> 01:00:25,280
together and it's up to us to understand

1371
01:00:32,510 --> 01:00:29,160
how that melding actually works I mean

1372
01:00:35,329 --> 01:00:32,520
as you know well once quantum mechanics

1373
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:35,339
came on the scene in the 1920s

1374
01:00:39,530 --> 01:00:37,680
there was this approach developed called

1375
01:00:42,109 --> 01:00:39,540
quantization

1376
01:00:44,930 --> 01:00:42,119
where you took ideas from the

1377
01:00:47,630 --> 01:00:44,940
pre-quantum world classical physics and

1378
01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:47,640
you found a kind of algorithm

1379
01:00:51,650 --> 01:00:49,920
for making them quantum mechanical and

1380
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:51,660
that algorithm is called quantization

1381
01:00:57,289 --> 01:00:54,240
take Newton's ideas make them quantum

1382
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,299
mechanical you know and and and that was

1383
01:01:01,730 --> 01:00:59,520
the Rhythm that was the approach that we

1384
01:01:03,430 --> 01:01:01,740
took for a long time that may not be the

1385
01:01:06,349 --> 01:01:03,440
right approach it may not be you take

1386
01:01:09,530 --> 01:01:06,359
Einstein's ideas of General activity and

1387
01:01:12,109 --> 01:01:09,540
you quantize them they may already have

1388
01:01:15,770 --> 01:01:12,119
quantum mechanics within them and that

1389
01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:15,780
that's the Deep new and exciting Insight

1390
01:01:21,049 --> 01:01:18,059
so he asked me sort of what are the sort

1391
01:01:23,630 --> 01:01:21,059
of competitors or candidates

1392
01:01:26,210 --> 01:01:23,640
you know we'll we'll certainly

1393
01:01:29,329 --> 01:01:26,220
I consider as I mentioned before the

1394
01:01:32,690 --> 01:01:29,339
Luke quantum gravity community

1395
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:32,700
many colleagues many friends in that

1396
01:01:38,690 --> 01:01:36,480
world and I respect what they are doing

1397
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:38,700
I think as I mentioned that this string

1398
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:42,000
theoretic approach has achieved more and

1399
01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:44,400
it feels like it's giving us more

1400
01:01:51,170 --> 01:01:48,000
surprising and and detailed insights but

1401
01:01:53,809 --> 01:01:51,180
no doubt people would say partly your

1402
01:01:55,549 --> 01:01:53,819
view is colored by the fact that you

1403
01:01:58,010 --> 01:01:55,559
know since I was a graduate student

1404
01:02:00,950 --> 01:01:58,020
that's been more or less the domain

1405
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:00,960
within which I've walked none of the

1406
01:02:07,549 --> 01:02:05,520
other ideas that I've seen described and

1407
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:07,559
again I full well say I do not

1408
01:02:10,970 --> 01:02:09,119
investigate them all because I don't

1409
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:10,980
have the time but I have not seen

1410
01:02:17,030 --> 01:02:14,160
anything else that rises to that level

1411
01:02:19,130 --> 01:02:17,040
of achievement or sophistication the

1412
01:02:21,230 --> 01:02:19,140
reason behind my question is that I'm

1413
01:02:23,870 --> 01:02:21,240
working on a paper with a colleague

1414
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:23,880
Carlos zapeda where we're going to do an

1415
01:02:27,950 --> 01:02:25,920
inventory of the candidates for

1416
01:02:29,870 --> 01:02:27,960
unification attempts between gravity and

1417
01:02:31,329 --> 01:02:29,880
quantum mechanics so maybe don't you

1418
01:02:33,410 --> 01:02:31,339
don't want to call it tells whatever

1419
01:02:35,870 --> 01:02:33,420
let's just call the tolls for the sake

1420
01:02:39,109 --> 01:02:35,880
of this and then also some deciderata on

1421
01:02:40,549 --> 01:02:39,119
the side like does it explain so and so

1422
01:02:42,589 --> 01:02:40,559
on and there's some uncontroversial list

1423
01:02:44,210 --> 01:02:42,599
on Wikipedia of the outstanding problems

1424
01:02:46,250 --> 01:02:44,220
in physics and putting a check mark like

1425
01:02:47,390 --> 01:02:46,260
a matrix with one on the x-axis one on

1426
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:47,400
the y-axis

1427
01:02:52,370 --> 01:02:50,160
and so I wanted to know well I'm asking

1428
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:52,380
different physicists and also

1429
01:02:55,670 --> 01:02:54,720
mathematicians who work in physics what

1430
01:02:57,770 --> 01:02:55,680
are the

1431
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:57,780
different candidates that should go

1432
01:03:00,829 --> 01:02:59,520
there and I know that you mentioned that

1433
01:03:02,210 --> 01:03:00,839
there are several people who raised a

1434
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:02,220
hand as difficulty can't follow every

1435
01:03:07,250 --> 01:03:04,559
single one who says I have a toe the toe

1436
01:03:09,289 --> 01:03:07,260
by Lisi and and Weinstein and Eric

1437
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:09,299
Wolfram they're of a different quality

1438
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:11,280
than the average person who emails and

1439
01:03:14,930 --> 01:03:13,200
says that they have a toe that is in

1440
01:03:17,809 --> 01:03:14,940
mathematical sophistication maybe not

1441
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:17,819
rigor but hey the elements of a toll

1442
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:19,440
even Quantum field theory is not

1443
01:03:23,569 --> 01:03:22,079
entirely rigorous but the the point is

1444
01:03:26,210 --> 01:03:23,579
in terms of mathematical sophistication

1445
01:03:28,190 --> 01:03:26,220
they're in a different League so I'm

1446
01:03:31,130 --> 01:03:28,200
curious what else goes there and then I

1447
01:03:34,609 --> 01:03:31,140
wanted to do a waiting like it's it's a

1448
01:03:35,690 --> 01:03:34,619
bit unfair to say s032 solves 7 out of

1449
01:03:38,030 --> 01:03:35,700
the 15.

1450
01:03:40,370 --> 01:03:38,040
but wolf runs only solves 5 out of the

1451
01:03:42,230 --> 01:03:40,380
15. however wolfram's working on it in a

1452
01:03:44,750 --> 01:03:42,240
basement maybe a basement in a lovely

1453
01:03:46,130 --> 01:03:44,760
house but like in a basement and and

1454
01:03:48,530 --> 01:03:46,140
there's let's say a thousand people

1455
01:03:50,809 --> 01:03:48,540
working on sl32 across decades or

1456
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:50,819
heterotic eight or whatever it may be so

1457
01:03:54,530 --> 01:03:52,559
then I was like how do I do that waiting

1458
01:03:55,549 --> 01:03:54,540
and then but anyway so it's a fun

1459
01:03:57,770 --> 01:03:55,559
project

1460
01:03:59,630 --> 01:03:57,780
and I just wanted some some help with it

1461
01:04:01,010 --> 01:03:59,640
and I wanted to hear what your thoughts

1462
01:04:02,990 --> 01:04:01,020
were and what else do you think I should

1463
01:04:04,210 --> 01:04:03,000
consider putting in it or not putting in

1464
01:04:14,450 --> 01:04:04,220
it

1465
01:04:18,190 --> 01:04:14,460
out but the but the interesting thing is

1466
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:18,200
to most researchers in the field

1467
01:04:27,710 --> 01:04:23,760
the work is all about the details

1468
01:04:29,089 --> 01:04:27,720
and and you're right that we all receive

1469
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:29,099
these letters

1470
01:04:33,770 --> 01:04:32,400
in the mail and sometimes they're

1471
01:04:36,109 --> 01:04:33,780
actually kind of heartbreaking I've

1472
01:04:37,970 --> 01:04:36,119
gotten letters from people who have been

1473
01:04:39,890 --> 01:04:37,980
in that basement that you just made

1474
01:04:42,470 --> 01:04:39,900
reference to not a particularly nice one

1475
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:42,480
I would imagine working out the final

1476
01:04:49,130 --> 01:04:45,200
Theory of Everything I remember one

1477
01:04:50,870 --> 01:04:49,140
gentleman wrote to me and I'm I think he

1478
01:04:54,349 --> 01:04:50,880
was on the level he was saying how he's

1479
01:04:56,930 --> 01:04:54,359
been working on this for 20 25 years his

1480
01:04:58,970 --> 01:04:56,940
wife left him his kids left him because

1481
01:05:01,010 --> 01:04:58,980
the only thing he cared about was

1482
01:05:03,950 --> 01:05:01,020
working out this Theory and he finally

1483
01:05:07,609 --> 01:05:03,960
had the theory and it sent it to me and

1484
01:05:10,970 --> 01:05:07,619
it looked like every other theory that I

1485
01:05:13,370 --> 01:05:10,980
get through that particular medium all

1486
01:05:15,710 --> 01:05:13,380
sorts of graphs and lines and

1487
01:05:19,250 --> 01:05:15,720
interconnected shapes and you're like oh

1488
01:05:22,309 --> 01:05:19,260
my God you know this is probably insane

1489
01:05:25,030 --> 01:05:22,319
I mean not insane in some medically

1490
01:05:27,890 --> 01:05:25,040
verifiable sense but it's deeply sad

1491
01:05:30,589 --> 01:05:27,900
that someone

1492
01:05:33,410 --> 01:05:30,599
um who has the same urge that we have

1493
01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:33,420
right and wants to figure it all out is

1494
01:05:41,150 --> 01:05:38,160
somehow likely being misled by certain

1495
01:05:43,370 --> 01:05:41,160
kinds of patterns or certain kinds of

1496
01:05:45,710 --> 01:05:43,380
geometrical shapes that really have no

1497
01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:45,720
bearing on the final answer the number

1498
01:05:51,849 --> 01:05:48,960
of times you get Communications of the

1499
01:05:55,789 --> 01:05:51,859
sort where it's all about working out

1500
01:05:58,849 --> 01:05:55,799
ratios of like pi to the ninth divided

1501
01:06:01,370 --> 01:05:58,859
by e to the seventh you know time you

1502
01:06:03,770 --> 01:06:01,380
know and and they work out to like 12 or

1503
01:06:06,589 --> 01:06:03,780
15 decimal places and they find some

1504
01:06:08,569 --> 01:06:06,599
pattern in the numbers and yeah it hurts

1505
01:06:10,849 --> 01:06:08,579
inside to imagine someone spending their

1506
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:10,859
life doing something like that which is

1507
01:06:16,430 --> 01:06:12,720
meaningless

1508
01:06:17,809 --> 01:06:16,440
and so yes that category of work is

1509
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:17,819
quite different

1510
01:06:22,609 --> 01:06:20,640
from any of the other ideas that you've

1511
01:06:24,650 --> 01:06:22,619
put forward

1512
01:06:30,049 --> 01:06:24,660
um but in the end of the day you know

1513
01:06:33,829 --> 01:06:30,059
people vote with what they work on and

1514
01:06:35,809 --> 01:06:33,839
string theory has attracted a great deal

1515
01:06:38,329 --> 01:06:35,819
of people to work on and by strength

1516
01:06:41,210 --> 01:06:38,339
year I mean now something broader than

1517
01:06:46,430 --> 01:06:41,220
what I would have meant say in 1990 or

1518
01:06:50,029 --> 01:06:46,440
2000 now String Theory now is any work

1519
01:06:53,589 --> 01:06:50,039
that uses the ingredients or the

1520
01:06:56,270 --> 01:06:53,599
insights or the mathematical formalism

1521
01:06:58,730 --> 01:06:56,280
that was part of the early development

1522
01:07:00,549 --> 01:06:58,740
of string theory so now you know people

1523
01:07:03,049 --> 01:07:00,559
who are working on connections between

1524
01:07:04,730 --> 01:07:03,059
gravity general relativity and quantum

1525
01:07:08,089 --> 01:07:04,740
mechanics entanglement as we described

1526
01:07:11,029 --> 01:07:08,099
before would I call that string theory

1527
01:07:14,569 --> 01:07:11,039
per se I don't know it would have been

1528
01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:14,579
very unfamiliar to a string theorist say

1529
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:17,760
from 1980 but that's what progress is

1530
01:07:22,609 --> 01:07:20,880
it's it's wherever the ideas Lead You So

1531
01:07:25,789 --> 01:07:22,619
as a community

1532
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:25,799
it's hard for me to compare anything to

1533
01:07:31,789 --> 01:07:29,039
the string theory Community for the

1534
01:07:34,670 --> 01:07:31,799
level of insight and and the level of

1535
01:07:37,490 --> 01:07:34,680
achievement so sure I mean it's nice to

1536
01:07:40,010 --> 01:07:37,500
lay out like in a matrix in a chart you

1537
01:07:42,890 --> 01:07:40,020
know the various approaches that that

1538
01:07:46,130 --> 01:07:42,900
serious scientists as opposed to perhaps

1539
01:07:47,870 --> 01:07:46,140
untrained folks in basements

1540
01:07:50,809 --> 01:07:47,880
um what serious scientists have been

1541
01:07:53,210 --> 01:07:50,819
focusing their attention on but I I

1542
01:07:56,150 --> 01:07:53,220
really don't think anything comes close

1543
01:07:58,849 --> 01:07:56,160
to what the string theory Community

1544
01:08:00,829 --> 01:07:58,859
broadly defined has achieved and again I

1545
01:08:02,210 --> 01:08:00,839
do have great respects as I mentioned

1546
01:08:05,510 --> 01:08:02,220
for the loop quantum gravity Community

1547
01:08:09,349 --> 01:08:05,520
but none of the others for me really are

1548
01:08:11,630 --> 01:08:09,359
are developed to a point that are worthy

1549
01:08:12,529 --> 01:08:11,640
of exploration and tension at least not

1550
01:08:14,329 --> 01:08:12,539
yet

1551
01:08:16,249 --> 01:08:14,339
what advice do you have for people who

1552
01:08:17,749 --> 01:08:16,259
are interested in physics like seriously

1553
01:08:19,490 --> 01:08:17,759
interested in physics but aren't able to

1554
01:08:21,470 --> 01:08:19,500
go to a university for whatever reason

1555
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:21,480
maybe they're older now and they feel

1556
01:08:25,130 --> 01:08:22,799
like they don't want to go back they

1557
01:08:27,530 --> 01:08:25,140
have not enough time or they just don't

1558
01:08:29,030 --> 01:08:27,540
have the money or for whatever life

1559
01:08:31,490 --> 01:08:29,040
circumstance

1560
01:08:33,410 --> 01:08:31,500
yeah well look you know I never want to

1561
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:33,420
discourage people

1562
01:08:40,729 --> 01:08:37,199
there may be a a ramanujan

1563
01:08:45,130 --> 01:08:40,739
in our midst you know someone who's

1564
01:08:47,329 --> 01:08:45,140
level of perspicacity is so off scale

1565
01:08:49,550 --> 01:08:47,339
that they don't need the traditional

1566
01:08:50,809 --> 01:08:49,560
training and they don't need the

1567
01:08:53,630 --> 01:08:50,819
traditional environment and then they

1568
01:08:55,570 --> 01:08:53,640
can produce things that you know I

1569
01:08:58,789 --> 01:08:55,580
forget exactly the quote but

1570
01:09:01,550 --> 01:08:58,799
mathematician GH Hardy when looking at

1571
01:09:05,150 --> 01:09:01,560
some of the theorems that ramanujan had

1572
01:09:07,630 --> 01:09:05,160
sent him said something like you know

1573
01:09:10,370 --> 01:09:07,640
if these are true he's the greatest

1574
01:09:13,010 --> 01:09:10,380
mathematician if these are not true he's

1575
01:09:14,630 --> 01:09:13,020
an even greater mathematician for having

1576
01:09:17,209 --> 01:09:14,640
thought them up when they're not

1577
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:17,219
actually true I mean you know so so if

1578
01:09:24,050 --> 01:09:21,120
there's somebody like that uh wow more

1579
01:09:26,990 --> 01:09:24,060
power to them and and they can pursue

1580
01:09:28,550 --> 01:09:27,000
these kinds of ideas on their own or

1581
01:09:30,530 --> 01:09:28,560
maybe through brief Communications but

1582
01:09:32,749 --> 01:09:30,540
for the vast majority of people of the

1583
01:09:33,769 --> 01:09:32,759
sort that you're describing it is really

1584
01:09:37,849 --> 01:09:33,779
tough

1585
01:09:40,910 --> 01:09:37,859
to do this outside of a community of

1586
01:09:43,070 --> 01:09:40,920
co-workers I mean the way we physicists

1587
01:09:45,950 --> 01:09:43,080
typically work you know I'm in my office

1588
01:09:48,349 --> 01:09:45,960
at Columbia students and grad students

1589
01:09:50,749 --> 01:09:48,359
and post-docs and and seminars and

1590
01:09:52,789 --> 01:09:50,759
informal conversations and you read this

1591
01:09:54,890 --> 01:09:52,799
paper and you hear that idea you talk to

1592
01:09:57,470 --> 01:09:54,900
that person you start to develop this

1593
01:09:59,090 --> 01:09:57,480
collaboration that collaboration it's

1594
01:10:02,870 --> 01:09:59,100
just really hard to do

1595
01:10:05,870 --> 01:10:02,880
physics without that and so if one is

1596
01:10:09,770 --> 01:10:05,880
not in that world and one is somewhat

1597
01:10:11,689 --> 01:10:09,780
older it's really tough to break in and

1598
01:10:13,490 --> 01:10:11,699
for most people they they don't have the

1599
01:10:16,250 --> 01:10:13,500
financial resources to just give up

1600
01:10:19,669 --> 01:10:16,260
their life and go back to school

1601
01:10:22,250 --> 01:10:19,679
especially with the fact that I mean you

1602
01:10:24,830 --> 01:10:22,260
know maybe things are changing but

1603
01:10:28,910 --> 01:10:24,840
you know it's tough to get a faculty job

1604
01:10:31,130 --> 01:10:28,920
if you get your PhD at like 70. it's

1605
01:10:33,770 --> 01:10:31,140
just unlikely I'm using extreme numbers

1606
01:10:36,169 --> 01:10:33,780
to avoid anybody like jumping down my

1607
01:10:38,209 --> 01:10:36,179
throat in some ageism because you know

1608
01:10:41,450 --> 01:10:38,219
but you know what I'm saying the typical

1609
01:10:45,290 --> 01:10:41,460
root the typical root is someone gets

1610
01:10:47,810 --> 01:10:45,300
their PHD at a relatively young and

1611
01:10:50,570 --> 01:10:47,820
Society views it as more energetic

1612
01:10:52,790 --> 01:10:50,580
fertile Age and and and and and then

1613
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:52,800
they get a faculty job and and they're

1614
01:10:57,530 --> 01:10:54,480
often running as part of the community

1615
01:11:01,310 --> 01:10:57,540
and when you when you delay that it's

1616
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,320
really really hard I mean I have known

1617
01:11:05,390 --> 01:11:04,080
and you know individuals who loved I

1618
01:11:07,669 --> 01:11:05,400
remember I'm thinking of one guy in

1619
01:11:11,050 --> 01:11:07,679
particular love mathematics and he went

1620
01:11:13,370 --> 01:11:11,060
back and got his PhD at a relatively

1621
01:11:15,189 --> 01:11:13,380
Advanced age which wasn't old but

1622
01:11:18,890 --> 01:11:15,199
relative Advantage compared to the norm

1623
01:11:20,990 --> 01:11:18,900
and got himself a really nice teaching

1624
01:11:22,610 --> 01:11:21,000
job at a university

1625
01:11:25,130 --> 01:11:22,620
and as far as I can tell I haven't

1626
01:11:28,250 --> 01:11:25,140
spoken to one is quite happy

1627
01:11:30,649 --> 01:11:28,260
because he's spending time in the

1628
01:11:33,050 --> 01:11:30,659
community of ideas that he finds most

1629
01:11:35,990 --> 01:11:33,060
exciting but

1630
01:11:39,290 --> 01:11:36,000
um it's tough that's rare that's really

1631
01:11:40,430 --> 01:11:39,300
tough so you know I guess the advice

1632
01:11:42,830 --> 01:11:40,440
would be

1633
01:11:46,490 --> 01:11:42,840
maybe you can find enough gratification

1634
01:11:48,590 --> 01:11:46,500
from reading about the ideas and maybe

1635
01:11:50,450 --> 01:11:48,600
going to a local University when they

1636
01:11:53,209 --> 01:11:50,460
have a seminar series maybe you can you

1637
01:11:56,149 --> 01:11:53,219
know and maybe through that you can find

1638
01:11:58,130 --> 01:11:56,159
inroads into your local community at a

1639
01:12:00,890 --> 01:11:58,140
local University and maybe even begin

1640
01:12:01,790 --> 01:12:00,900
some collaboration on on some kind of

1641
01:12:05,149 --> 01:12:01,800
project

1642
01:12:07,250 --> 01:12:05,159
but it's it's not an easy path and

1643
01:12:08,390 --> 01:12:07,260
certainly not if one wants to make it

1644
01:12:11,870 --> 01:12:08,400
there

1645
01:12:14,510 --> 01:12:11,880
sort of career and and for them to make

1646
01:12:17,570 --> 01:12:14,520
a living from it that's really tough if

1647
01:12:19,790 --> 01:12:17,580
you're not in a traditional trajectory

1648
01:12:21,770 --> 01:12:19,800
would an analogy be if someone wants to

1649
01:12:23,090 --> 01:12:21,780
learn martial arts sure you could do so

1650
01:12:25,310 --> 01:12:23,100
on your own you can watch YouTube videos

1651
01:12:27,410 --> 01:12:25,320
but there is something about grappling

1652
01:12:29,030 --> 01:12:27,420
with other people using your body with

1653
01:12:30,890 --> 01:12:29,040
someone who's living rather than a

1654
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:30,900
wooden machine

1655
01:12:35,149 --> 01:12:32,159
there's something about the group

1656
01:12:37,850 --> 01:12:35,159
dynamic or does that an analogy fail no

1657
01:12:39,649 --> 01:12:37,860
I think it's a really good analogy and I

1658
01:12:41,689 --> 01:12:39,659
think I may use it going forward so

1659
01:12:43,850 --> 01:12:41,699
thank you on that one but because

1660
01:12:45,470 --> 01:12:43,860
um but the number of times

1661
01:12:47,810 --> 01:12:45,480
you know I'm reasonably well

1662
01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:47,820
accomplished right the number of times

1663
01:12:52,610 --> 01:12:49,920
when I've been working on something I'm

1664
01:12:54,950 --> 01:12:52,620
completely stuck I try this I try that

1665
01:12:57,410 --> 01:12:54,960
it's just not just not happening right

1666
01:12:59,330 --> 01:12:57,420
then I'll meet with a few people you

1667
01:13:02,030 --> 01:12:59,340
know here Colombia collaboration we Chit

1668
01:13:05,209 --> 01:13:02,040
Chat talk about oh boom now we know

1669
01:13:07,970 --> 01:13:05,219
where to go where did the idea come from

1670
01:13:11,689 --> 01:13:07,980
none of us had the idea going in to that

1671
01:13:14,450 --> 01:13:11,699
exchange but yet somehow in the midst of

1672
01:13:17,630 --> 01:13:14,460
that grappling if I go back to your

1673
01:13:21,950 --> 01:13:17,640
metaphor the the the potential idea

1674
01:13:24,950 --> 01:13:21,960
emerged and and so without that

1675
01:13:26,689 --> 01:13:24,960
um it's very hard to make progress

1676
01:13:28,910 --> 01:13:26,699
have you ever collaborated with Ed

1677
01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:28,920
Whitton

1678
01:13:37,910 --> 01:13:32,880
collaborated no but worked

1679
01:13:41,450 --> 01:13:37,920
um uh uh right next to him yes in the

1680
01:13:44,090 --> 01:13:41,460
sense of back in the 1990s oh my God I'm

1681
01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:44,100
getting old but back in the 1990s I was

1682
01:13:50,330 --> 01:13:47,280
at the institute for advanced study and

1683
01:13:52,189 --> 01:13:50,340
um we had an idea I had a particular

1684
01:13:55,370 --> 01:13:52,199
idea of something I wanted to prove that

1685
01:13:56,930 --> 01:13:55,380
the fabric of space could rip and uh Ed

1686
01:13:58,850 --> 01:13:56,940
is at the institute for Advantage so I

1687
01:14:00,169 --> 01:13:58,860
told him about this idea and thought it

1688
01:14:03,229 --> 01:14:00,179
was exciting I was working with a couple

1689
01:14:06,830 --> 01:14:03,239
other people Paul asmold Dave Morrison

1690
01:14:08,090 --> 01:14:06,840
and Edward started to work on his own

1691
01:14:09,830 --> 01:14:08,100
version

1692
01:14:10,850 --> 01:14:09,840
didn't take anything from us he was just

1693
01:14:14,030 --> 01:14:10,860
went a completely different direction

1694
01:14:15,770 --> 01:14:14,040
but yet converged on exactly the same

1695
01:14:17,990 --> 01:14:15,780
question and it was among the most

1696
01:14:21,050 --> 01:14:18,000
exciting times that I've had in physics

1697
01:14:23,750 --> 01:14:21,060
because like we knew he was closing in

1698
01:14:26,750 --> 01:14:23,760
on it we were closing in on it we knew

1699
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:26,760
that he's a million times smarter than

1700
01:14:31,430 --> 01:14:28,800
we are so we had to work the million

1701
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:31,440
times harder and faster to try to get

1702
01:14:36,169 --> 01:14:33,600
there and not be completely scooped and

1703
01:14:40,010 --> 01:14:36,179
basically at the same time late in the

1704
01:14:42,830 --> 01:14:40,020
fall I guess of 1992 it was we within

1705
01:14:45,709 --> 01:14:42,840
days came to the same conclusion from

1706
01:14:49,010 --> 01:14:45,719
completely different approaches and so

1707
01:14:51,050 --> 01:14:49,020
we were right right there you know Head

1708
01:14:54,050 --> 01:14:51,060
to Head it was an incredibly exciting

1709
01:14:56,750 --> 01:14:54,060
time uh but yeah he's again

1710
01:15:00,110 --> 01:14:56,760
you know one of those figures whose

1711
01:15:01,910 --> 01:15:00,120
intellect is just hard to fathom I was

1712
01:15:04,130 --> 01:15:01,920
speaking to Richard Orchards and he said

1713
01:15:07,130 --> 01:15:04,140
Ed Whitton is terrifying

1714
01:15:10,669 --> 01:15:07,140
that I said well why and he said that he

1715
01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:10,679
puts out as side effects whole other

1716
01:15:14,870 --> 01:15:12,420
fields like the Witten invariance like

1717
01:15:16,310 --> 01:15:14,880
cyborg yeah

1718
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:16,320
you have to tell you you know it's funny

1719
01:15:21,590 --> 01:15:18,480
a friend of mine was at the institute

1720
01:15:23,870 --> 01:15:21,600
for advanced study over a summer and the

1721
01:15:25,850 --> 01:15:23,880
place that kind of cleared out and and I

1722
01:15:27,950 --> 01:15:25,860
think Edward was there and this friend

1723
01:15:29,870 --> 01:15:27,960
of mine was there I won't give his name

1724
01:15:32,390 --> 01:15:29,880
in case he wouldn't want me to share it

1725
01:15:34,130 --> 01:15:32,400
but they were kind of sharing a wall

1726
01:15:36,530 --> 01:15:34,140
their offices were right next to each

1727
01:15:39,290 --> 01:15:36,540
other and so my friend was slogging away

1728
01:15:41,750 --> 01:15:39,300
doing his calculations you know hitting

1729
01:15:44,330 --> 01:15:41,760
dead ends and all through the summer he

1730
01:15:47,930 --> 01:15:44,340
kept hearing tap tap tap tap as Ed was

1731
01:15:49,669 --> 01:15:47,940
typing out paper after paper after paper

1732
01:15:52,130 --> 01:15:49,679
as if he was just sort of sitting there

1733
01:15:53,570 --> 01:15:52,140
and the ideas were sufficiently formed

1734
01:15:56,270 --> 01:15:53,580
they didn't even have to write anything

1735
01:15:59,149 --> 01:15:56,280
out he could go right from brain to

1736
01:16:01,010 --> 01:15:59,159
finished paper and my friend was like

1737
01:16:02,930 --> 01:16:01,020
you sit there and you're like what am I

1738
01:16:05,390 --> 01:16:02,940
doing why am I in this field

1739
01:16:07,970 --> 01:16:05,400
you know I can't you I can't but but but

1740
01:16:10,790 --> 01:16:07,980
that's actually an important thing

1741
01:16:12,770 --> 01:16:10,800
there is a place where so many people

1742
01:16:14,450 --> 01:16:12,780
can contribute sort of back to the

1743
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:14,460
question we had before

1744
01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:16,800
while it's harder for the person who's

1745
01:16:20,330 --> 01:16:18,480
not gone to graduate school or is

1746
01:16:22,729 --> 01:16:20,340
working in the basement to really make

1747
01:16:25,550 --> 01:16:22,739
that contribution

1748
01:16:28,490 --> 01:16:25,560
kids who go to undergraduate then go to

1749
01:16:29,870 --> 01:16:28,500
graduate there's so many ways for so

1750
01:16:31,209 --> 01:16:29,880
many different people with so many

1751
01:16:35,209 --> 01:16:31,219
different

1752
01:16:37,790 --> 01:16:35,219
levels of intellectual capacity and

1753
01:16:40,490 --> 01:16:37,800
level of insight to contribute and to

1754
01:16:42,290 --> 01:16:40,500
contribute in vital ways and so you

1755
01:16:46,189 --> 01:16:42,300
don't have to only be an Edward Whitten

1756
01:16:48,890 --> 01:16:46,199
in order that you advance the field and

1757
01:16:50,930 --> 01:16:48,900
and so it's absolutely the case

1758
01:16:52,910 --> 01:16:50,940
yeah how do you not feel demoralized if

1759
01:16:55,370 --> 01:16:52,920
you're working on the same problem as Ed

1760
01:16:57,530 --> 01:16:55,380
Whitton or synonym for Ed Whitton

1761
01:16:59,510 --> 01:16:57,540
so you work on a different problem or or

1762
01:17:00,470 --> 01:16:59,520
what or you try to collaborate look I

1763
01:17:03,530 --> 01:17:00,480
mean

1764
01:17:05,510 --> 01:17:03,540
it is so I you know I gave you one

1765
01:17:07,430 --> 01:17:05,520
example where we were working on the

1766
01:17:09,950 --> 01:17:07,440
same problem in a sense as Edward

1767
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:09,960
Whitton and and the fact that we got to

1768
01:17:13,189 --> 01:17:11,760
the Finish Line at the same time was

1769
01:17:15,709 --> 01:17:13,199
again you know one of those great

1770
01:17:18,290 --> 01:17:15,719
achievements that that I will always

1771
01:17:21,050 --> 01:17:18,300
remember for Edward it was just another

1772
01:17:23,090 --> 01:17:21,060
day at the office you know

1773
01:17:25,250 --> 01:17:23,100
um but having said that

1774
01:17:27,709 --> 01:17:25,260
I think it's very important that you

1775
01:17:30,709 --> 01:17:27,719
pick your problems carefully

1776
01:17:32,930 --> 01:17:30,719
you don't want to take I don't like to

1777
01:17:35,450 --> 01:17:32,940
take a problem that every other

1778
01:17:36,890 --> 01:17:35,460
physicist deems as the most important

1779
01:17:40,250 --> 01:17:36,900
and they're all working on it that's

1780
01:17:43,130 --> 01:17:40,260
never been my Approach my Approach has

1781
01:17:46,610 --> 01:17:43,140
always been I'm gonna find that corner

1782
01:17:49,850 --> 01:17:46,620
that appeals to me that corner that I

1783
01:17:51,950 --> 01:17:49,860
feel like I can at my own pace I'll work

1784
01:17:54,830 --> 01:17:51,960
hard but at my own pace I can make

1785
01:17:56,689 --> 01:17:54,840
Headway make progress and contribute

1786
01:17:59,570 --> 01:17:56,699
something bring it out to the world and

1787
01:18:01,910 --> 01:17:59,580
then maybe excite people to work on that

1788
01:18:03,649 --> 01:18:01,920
I mean that's you know I I one of the

1789
01:18:06,470 --> 01:18:03,659
big things that I did some years ago is

1790
01:18:09,470 --> 01:18:06,480
called mirror symmetry which was uh

1791
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:09,480
developing certain properties of higher

1792
01:18:15,169 --> 01:18:12,480
dimensional spaces that are relevant for

1793
01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:15,179
string theory and when we were working

1794
01:18:19,910 --> 01:18:17,760
on this it was a really small community

1795
01:18:21,770 --> 01:18:19,920
that was working it was really us and

1796
01:18:23,470 --> 01:18:21,780
one other group in Texas Philip

1797
01:18:26,209 --> 01:18:23,480
candelison who is grouped down in Texas

1798
01:18:28,430 --> 01:18:26,219
and so it was really exciting we were

1799
01:18:31,490 --> 01:18:28,440
competing against each other there but

1800
01:18:32,930 --> 01:18:31,500
we were in close communication but it

1801
01:18:34,729 --> 01:18:32,940
wasn't like a thousand other groups

1802
01:18:37,550 --> 01:18:34,739
around the world were all battered and

1803
01:18:39,830 --> 01:18:37,560
it's just us and so you know we got

1804
01:18:41,689 --> 01:18:39,840
hours he got his results our group got

1805
01:18:45,110 --> 01:18:41,699
our results he put people got excited

1806
01:18:47,750 --> 01:18:45,120
and then the field took off and now like

1807
01:18:49,790 --> 01:18:47,760
mirror symmetry has become a whole field

1808
01:18:53,330 --> 01:18:49,800
of mathematics that has developed over

1809
01:18:55,310 --> 01:18:53,340
decades I no longer even recognize the

1810
01:18:58,610 --> 01:18:55,320
things that happen in this field because

1811
01:19:00,709 --> 01:18:58,620
it got so mathematical and so beyond my

1812
01:19:03,830 --> 01:19:00,719
particular interest which is really from

1813
01:19:05,330 --> 01:19:03,840
the physics standpoint but that's a

1814
01:19:07,430 --> 01:19:05,340
great place to be work in your own

1815
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:07,440
Corner come up with something put it out

1816
01:19:11,090 --> 01:19:08,880
there start a field and then the field

1817
01:19:12,350 --> 01:19:11,100
takes off and God bless everybody who

1818
01:19:14,930 --> 01:19:12,360
works on it

1819
01:19:17,149 --> 01:19:14,940
your current interest is time or one of

1820
01:19:19,610 --> 01:19:17,159
them the emergence of time

1821
01:19:21,950 --> 01:19:19,620
yeah I mean that it's a big question

1822
01:19:23,689 --> 01:19:21,960
though it's not as though you sit down

1823
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:23,699
at your desk and you're like okay where

1824
01:19:27,890 --> 01:19:25,440
where does time begin you know I it's

1825
01:19:30,290 --> 01:19:27,900
not a question you hit head on I think

1826
01:19:31,850 --> 01:19:30,300
it's the kind of question that you hit

1827
01:19:34,010 --> 01:19:31,860
obliquely

1828
01:19:36,350 --> 01:19:34,020
and for instance I would imagine that

1829
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:36,360
this work being done on wormholes and

1830
01:19:40,370 --> 01:19:38,159
quantum entanglement

1831
01:19:42,590 --> 01:19:40,380
taking general relativity and

1832
01:19:46,370 --> 01:19:42,600
understanding its inherent quantum

1833
01:19:48,830 --> 01:19:46,380
mechanical aspects I anticipate that

1834
01:19:50,750 --> 01:19:48,840
insight into a deep question such as the

1835
01:19:53,530 --> 01:19:50,760
origin of time will ultimately emerge

1836
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:53,540
from that but not from a head-on

1837
01:19:58,790 --> 01:19:56,159
approach but rather from a more indirect

1838
01:20:01,490 --> 01:19:58,800
approach do you agree with or find

1839
01:20:02,930 --> 01:20:01,500
interesting Carlo ravelli's views on

1840
01:20:04,610 --> 01:20:02,940
time he has this book the order of time

1841
01:20:06,530 --> 01:20:04,620
and Lisa Mullen has his own views too

1842
01:20:08,450 --> 01:20:06,540
which I believe is a realist and then

1843
01:20:09,950 --> 01:20:08,460
Carlo believes it's more relational or

1844
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:09,960
an emergent

1845
01:20:14,270 --> 01:20:12,000
and then Julian Barber

1846
01:20:16,189 --> 01:20:14,280
yeah so I think they're all interesting

1847
01:20:18,350 --> 01:20:16,199
yeah I think they're all interesting

1848
01:20:19,370 --> 01:20:18,360
ideas you know

1849
01:20:21,229 --> 01:20:19,380
um

1850
01:20:22,630 --> 01:20:21,239
I think that

1851
01:20:25,610 --> 01:20:22,640
ultimately

1852
01:20:29,390 --> 01:20:25,620
the the question of the the fundamental

1853
01:20:31,790 --> 01:20:29,400
nature of time is going to require

1854
01:20:34,209 --> 01:20:31,800
scientific insights Beyond those that we

1855
01:20:36,530 --> 01:20:34,219
currently have so I'm always interested

1856
01:20:39,350 --> 01:20:36,540
to hear

1857
01:20:42,169 --> 01:20:39,360
thoughts on the nature of time and so

1858
01:20:44,930 --> 01:20:42,179
Rebellion the relational quality of

1859
01:20:48,050 --> 01:20:44,940
space-time that resonates with me I

1860
01:20:51,830 --> 01:20:48,060
think there's definite powerful truth in

1861
01:20:56,590 --> 01:20:51,840
there uh I've seen papers of Lee's

1862
01:21:01,490 --> 01:20:56,600
talking about the way in which time can

1863
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:01,500
emerge from an earlier temporal quality

1864
01:21:07,310 --> 01:21:05,280
a kind of way in which the future is

1865
01:21:09,890 --> 01:21:07,320
built from the present as opposed to

1866
01:21:11,570 --> 01:21:09,900
already in some sense a temporal

1867
01:21:15,709 --> 01:21:11,580
Dimension being out there I think it's

1868
01:21:18,890 --> 01:21:15,719
quite interesting Julian Barber

1869
01:21:21,350 --> 01:21:18,900
um I I remember being very excited about

1870
01:21:24,169 --> 01:21:21,360
the initial ideas and then I read his

1871
01:21:26,090 --> 01:21:24,179
book and there was one paragraph where I

1872
01:21:27,110 --> 01:21:26,100
felt the heart of the idea was put

1873
01:21:29,930 --> 01:21:27,120
forward

1874
01:21:32,330 --> 01:21:29,940
and it felt to me that he'd redefined

1875
01:21:34,189 --> 01:21:32,340
the problem for me in a way that didn't

1876
01:21:36,350 --> 01:21:34,199
feel as interesting any longer I don't

1877
01:21:39,590 --> 01:21:36,360
know if there's been developments since

1878
01:21:42,169 --> 01:21:39,600
then so it's all just to say that yeah

1879
01:21:45,169 --> 01:21:42,179
there time is a big mystery

1880
01:21:47,870 --> 01:21:45,179
always interested to hear people's take

1881
01:21:50,030 --> 01:21:47,880
on it but in the end of the day I think

1882
01:21:53,630 --> 01:21:50,040
it's going to take deeper scientific

1883
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,640
insight and what's happening now in

1884
01:21:57,830 --> 01:21:56,159
string theory broadly defined in

1885
01:21:59,750 --> 01:21:57,840
understanding the quantum mechanical

1886
01:22:02,209 --> 01:21:59,760
qualities of general relativity the

1887
01:22:04,850 --> 01:22:02,219
intrinsic quantum mechanical qualities

1888
01:22:06,649 --> 01:22:04,860
of general relativity I think that's

1889
01:22:09,950 --> 01:22:06,659
where the new ideas are going to come

1890
01:22:11,689 --> 01:22:09,960
from before we wrap I have a choice for

1891
01:22:13,310 --> 01:22:11,699
you we can I have a couple physics

1892
01:22:15,890 --> 01:22:13,320
questions or a couple more philosophical

1893
01:22:17,450 --> 01:22:15,900
questions do you have a preference uh

1894
01:22:19,790 --> 01:22:17,460
you can do a blend whatever you whatever

1895
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:19,800
you think is good all right all right so

1896
01:22:23,270 --> 01:22:21,600
I know that you have an explored

1897
01:22:25,490 --> 01:22:23,280
category Theory much but have you

1898
01:22:27,050 --> 01:22:25,500
explored geometric algebra or geometric

1899
01:22:30,350 --> 01:22:27,060
calculus

1900
01:22:34,370 --> 01:22:30,360
you know I have dabbled but not enough

1901
01:22:35,990 --> 01:22:34,380
to feel like I can provide any insight

1902
01:22:37,910 --> 01:22:36,000
compared to the people who really know

1903
01:22:40,010 --> 01:22:37,920
the subjects that I probably would save

1904
01:22:42,770 --> 01:22:40,020
those questions for subsequent guests

1905
01:22:45,649 --> 01:22:42,780
who are more in that space sure sure

1906
01:22:47,030 --> 01:22:45,659
what is the swampland the swampland

1907
01:22:52,850 --> 01:22:47,040
conjectures

1908
01:22:54,850 --> 01:22:52,860
have to do with the following

1909
01:22:58,669 --> 01:22:54,860
question

1910
01:23:01,370 --> 01:22:58,679
when you have a theory that does a

1911
01:23:03,290 --> 01:23:01,380
really good job at describing say the

1912
01:23:06,370 --> 01:23:03,300
physics that we can see low energy

1913
01:23:10,370 --> 01:23:06,380
physics is the physics that we can see

1914
01:23:12,410 --> 01:23:10,380
does that theoretical description have

1915
01:23:15,530 --> 01:23:12,420
what's known as an UltraViolet

1916
01:23:20,030 --> 01:23:15,540
completion that is can that low energy

1917
01:23:21,890 --> 01:23:20,040
physics be augmented into a theory that

1918
01:23:26,209 --> 01:23:21,900
will agree with that low energy physics

1919
01:23:29,330 --> 01:23:26,219
but work at arbitrarily High energies or

1920
01:23:32,030 --> 01:23:29,340
is this just kind of an approximate

1921
01:23:34,070 --> 01:23:32,040
theory that works at low energies but

1922
01:23:36,229 --> 01:23:34,080
doesn't admit

1923
01:23:37,729 --> 01:23:36,239
an UltraViolet completed ultra high

1924
01:23:39,890 --> 01:23:37,739
energy doesn't emit the high energy

1925
01:23:42,169 --> 01:23:39,900
completion that is it cannot be extended

1926
01:23:46,130 --> 01:23:42,179
to arbitrarily High energies and the

1927
01:23:49,430 --> 01:23:46,140
swamp playing idea is to delineate

1928
01:23:53,149 --> 01:23:49,440
theories that may have a low energy

1929
01:23:56,590 --> 01:23:53,159
Incarnation but don't admit a full

1930
01:23:59,870 --> 01:23:56,600
completion to the entire energy spectrum

1931
01:24:03,110 --> 01:23:59,880
and and the the thought According to

1932
01:24:06,110 --> 01:24:03,120
some of the swamp limit ideas is that

1933
01:24:08,870 --> 01:24:06,120
the swamp plant is pretty big many many

1934
01:24:11,390 --> 01:24:08,880
of the theories that perhaps look like

1935
01:24:13,130 --> 01:24:11,400
they may be candidates for theories that

1936
01:24:16,490 --> 01:24:13,140
could be extended to arbitrarily High

1937
01:24:19,550 --> 01:24:16,500
energies they can't that they are

1938
01:24:22,430 --> 01:24:19,560
fundamentally inconsistent

1939
01:24:26,030 --> 01:24:22,440
and and that would be a that's a

1940
01:24:29,570 --> 01:24:26,040
potentially powerful idea because after

1941
01:24:30,729 --> 01:24:29,580
all our goal is to winnow down the

1942
01:24:34,130 --> 01:24:30,739
number of

1943
01:24:36,649 --> 01:24:34,140
candidate theories for the final Theory

1944
01:24:39,290 --> 01:24:36,659
and a final Theory would work at any

1945
01:24:41,750 --> 01:24:39,300
energy scale and if it can establish

1946
01:24:43,430 --> 01:24:41,760
that a great many theories that look

1947
01:24:46,850 --> 01:24:43,440
like they were contenders at low

1948
01:24:48,649 --> 01:24:46,860
energies that they don't admit an

1949
01:24:50,209 --> 01:24:48,659
extension to arbitrarily High energies

1950
01:24:51,350 --> 01:24:50,219
then they get eliminated from the

1951
01:24:54,169 --> 01:24:51,360
competition

1952
01:24:56,810 --> 01:24:54,179
and so you get to winnow out a whole

1953
01:25:00,050 --> 01:24:56,820
class of theories that don't

1954
01:25:02,030 --> 01:25:00,060
stand this test of completion to

1955
01:25:04,490 --> 01:25:02,040
arbitrarily High Energies

1956
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:04,500
so what's meant by you can take a low

1957
01:25:08,630 --> 01:25:06,719
effect sorry a low energy Theory and it

1958
01:25:10,490 --> 01:25:08,640
works at the low energy but then for

1959
01:25:12,169 --> 01:25:10,500
some you may be able to augment them and

1960
01:25:14,990 --> 01:25:12,179
then their UV complete what's meant by

1961
01:25:16,550 --> 01:25:15,000
augment what's a valid augmenting so

1962
01:25:18,290 --> 01:25:16,560
that what I mean is you can augment

1963
01:25:19,370 --> 01:25:18,300
Newtonian Theory to get special relative

1964
01:25:20,630 --> 01:25:19,380
video I don't know if like does that

1965
01:25:25,910 --> 01:25:20,640
mean Newtonian like I don't know what

1966
01:25:29,149 --> 01:25:25,920
augment means yeah so so usually these

1967
01:25:31,930 --> 01:25:29,159
ideas are formulated where you've

1968
01:25:35,149 --> 01:25:31,940
actually got a mathematical formulation

1969
01:25:38,750 --> 01:25:35,159
of a given Theory say perhaps even

1970
01:25:42,169 --> 01:25:38,760
within String Theory itself and then you

1971
01:25:45,169 --> 01:25:42,179
can simply ask is this a self-consistent

1972
01:25:46,970 --> 01:25:45,179
theory in the sense that you can use it

1973
01:25:49,310 --> 01:25:46,980
that Matt that very mathematical

1974
01:25:54,229 --> 01:25:49,320
formulation at arbitrarily High Energies

1975
01:25:55,209 --> 01:25:54,239
and if you can't then it properly should

1976
01:26:02,330 --> 01:25:55,219
be

1977
01:26:03,950 --> 01:26:02,340
doesn't admit an extension to or an

1978
01:26:05,450 --> 01:26:03,960
application perhaps would be a better

1979
01:26:06,950 --> 01:26:05,460
way of saying it to arbitrarily High

1980
01:26:09,110 --> 01:26:06,960
energies

1981
01:26:12,050 --> 01:26:09,120
um and so you know this is an idea that

1982
01:26:15,770 --> 01:26:12,060
cumren vaffa and collaborators was You

1983
01:26:18,830 --> 01:26:15,780
Know instrumental in developing

1984
01:26:20,390 --> 01:26:18,840
um and it it you know I wouldn't say

1985
01:26:21,229 --> 01:26:20,400
that it has

1986
01:26:28,490 --> 01:26:21,239
um

1987
01:26:31,629 --> 01:26:28,500
when it comes to theories like string

1988
01:26:34,970 --> 01:26:31,639
theory but it has sharpened them because

1989
01:26:38,990 --> 01:26:34,980
anytime you have a test in some sense

1990
01:26:42,169 --> 01:26:39,000
for whether or not a theory is fully

1991
01:26:44,149 --> 01:26:42,179
consistent works at arbitrarily High

1992
01:26:46,550 --> 01:26:44,159
energies and I should say high energies

1993
01:26:49,850 --> 01:26:46,560
mean short distances so does the theory

1994
01:26:52,910 --> 01:26:49,860
work at arbitrarily short distances if

1995
01:26:55,550 --> 01:26:52,920
it somehow is inconsistent at

1996
01:26:58,070 --> 01:26:55,560
sufficiently Short distances that's a

1997
01:27:00,050 --> 01:26:58,080
good thing for the project because now

1998
01:27:01,610 --> 01:27:00,060
you can throw that theory away

1999
01:27:03,470 --> 01:27:01,620
is consistency the same as

2000
01:27:06,110 --> 01:27:03,480
self-consistency

2001
01:27:11,750 --> 01:27:06,120
or is are those separate usually well

2002
01:27:14,450 --> 01:27:11,760
usually so unfortunately our ability to

2003
01:27:17,450 --> 01:27:14,460
probe the real physics of the real world

2004
01:27:19,129 --> 01:27:17,460
it arbitrarily short distances is highly

2005
01:27:22,070 --> 01:27:19,139
constrained by the equipment that we

2006
01:27:25,490 --> 01:27:22,080
have and so we'd love it

2007
01:27:27,790 --> 01:27:25,500
if consistency meant sure internal

2008
01:27:31,729 --> 01:27:27,800
consistency but also consistency with

2009
01:27:34,010 --> 01:27:31,739
observations that we might make of you

2010
01:27:37,129 --> 01:27:34,020
know physics down to 10 to the minus 25

2011
01:27:38,990 --> 01:27:37,139
or 10 to the minus 30 centimeters you

2012
01:27:42,169 --> 01:27:39,000
know that would be beautiful but but

2013
01:27:44,390 --> 01:27:42,179
because our ability to probe such Realms

2014
01:27:45,590 --> 01:27:44,400
is limited by our technology for the

2015
01:27:48,290 --> 01:27:45,600
most part yeah we're talking about

2016
01:27:50,629 --> 01:27:48,300
internal self-consistency uh okay

2017
01:27:52,430 --> 01:27:50,639
firstly is internal consistency the same

2018
01:27:53,750 --> 01:27:52,440
as self-consistency just so I can get

2019
01:27:57,470 --> 01:27:53,760
the terminology clear

2020
01:27:59,689 --> 01:27:57,480
yeah I mean it's just a statement of as

2021
01:28:04,129 --> 01:27:59,699
a mathematical structure

2022
01:28:07,810 --> 01:28:04,139
do you find any divergences do you find

2023
01:28:11,390 --> 01:28:07,820
any incurable Infinities or other

2024
01:28:15,229 --> 01:28:11,400
mathematical maladies do they emerge

2025
01:28:16,790 --> 01:28:15,239
when you try to apply this Theory to

2026
01:28:18,770 --> 01:28:16,800
arbitrarily short distance or

2027
01:28:20,570 --> 01:28:18,780
arbitrarily High Energies

2028
01:28:22,669 --> 01:28:20,580
and yeah you're not you're not talking

2029
01:28:25,610 --> 01:28:22,679
about observation at this point because

2030
01:28:27,350 --> 01:28:25,620
you don't have the observations sorry a

2031
01:28:29,390 --> 01:28:27,360
self-consistent theory would be UV

2032
01:28:32,209 --> 01:28:29,400
complete and a UV complete Theory would

2033
01:28:35,629 --> 01:28:32,219
be self-consistent or no like there's oh

2034
01:28:37,990 --> 01:28:35,639
yeah and if you if you have a true UV

2035
01:28:41,149 --> 01:28:38,000
complete Theory almost by definition

2036
01:28:44,090 --> 01:28:41,159
it's consistent because the completion

2037
01:28:46,310 --> 01:28:44,100
means that you've been able to

2038
01:28:47,990 --> 01:28:46,320
formulate the theory in a way that you

2039
01:28:49,610 --> 01:28:48,000
can apply it arbitrarily short distances

2040
01:28:51,709 --> 01:28:49,620
arbitrarily High energies that's what UV

2041
01:28:54,169 --> 01:28:51,719
completed is okay let's end with your

2042
01:28:57,290 --> 01:28:54,179
thoughts on simulation Theory

2043
01:28:58,910 --> 01:28:57,300
or sorry the simulation hypothesis yeah

2044
01:29:00,410 --> 01:28:58,920
uh well

2045
01:29:01,729 --> 01:29:00,420
um look

2046
01:29:04,610 --> 01:29:01,739
um

2047
01:29:07,370 --> 01:29:04,620
it's certainly the case

2048
01:29:10,129 --> 01:29:07,380
that as

2049
01:29:11,870 --> 01:29:10,139
um computational systems have become

2050
01:29:15,610 --> 01:29:11,880
more and more sophisticated their

2051
01:29:19,189 --> 01:29:15,620
ability to simulate the real world

2052
01:29:21,350 --> 01:29:19,199
seemingly is getting better and better

2053
01:29:23,689 --> 01:29:21,360
we see this with you know going from

2054
01:29:26,270 --> 01:29:23,699
video games to the most sophisticated

2055
01:29:29,510 --> 01:29:26,280
you know virtual reality

2056
01:29:31,610 --> 01:29:29,520
and so certainly one can imagine that at

2057
01:29:35,410 --> 01:29:31,620
some point in the future we will have

2058
01:29:38,510 --> 01:29:35,420
computational systems that are so

2059
01:29:44,290 --> 01:29:38,520
sophisticated that

2060
01:29:46,910 --> 01:29:44,300
they are able to have within them

2061
01:29:50,270 --> 01:29:46,920
collections of bits and bytes running

2062
01:29:53,030 --> 01:29:50,280
around that may themselves have

2063
01:29:55,189 --> 01:29:53,040
self-awareness now

2064
01:29:57,649 --> 01:29:55,199
that's the big unknown

2065
01:29:59,570 --> 01:29:57,659
can you have a computational system that

2066
01:30:02,390 --> 01:29:59,580
is itself self-aware that it has you

2067
01:30:03,709 --> 01:30:02,400
know some sort of Consciousness that

2068
01:30:05,750 --> 01:30:03,719
goes back to the question that we

2069
01:30:07,310 --> 01:30:05,760
started with early on I don't know the

2070
01:30:09,169 --> 01:30:07,320
answer to that but let's assume the

2071
01:30:10,370 --> 01:30:09,179
answers yet big assumption let's assume

2072
01:30:11,990 --> 01:30:10,380
the answer is yes

2073
01:30:14,149 --> 01:30:12,000
well then you're in an interesting

2074
01:30:15,770 --> 01:30:14,159
circumstance because

2075
01:30:19,010 --> 01:30:15,780
you can ask yourself

2076
01:30:22,010 --> 01:30:19,020
how many real universes in the sense of

2077
01:30:24,590 --> 01:30:22,020
solid tables and chairs are there well

2078
01:30:26,810 --> 01:30:24,600
we're kind of aware of one

2079
01:30:28,610 --> 01:30:26,820
and it's very hard to create new ones if

2080
01:30:30,830 --> 01:30:28,620
I challenge you to create a new real

2081
01:30:33,290 --> 01:30:30,840
Universe you don't know how to do it

2082
01:30:35,990 --> 01:30:33,300
create a new Big Bang nobody really

2083
01:30:39,050 --> 01:30:36,000
knows how to do that but if I ask you

2084
01:30:41,570 --> 01:30:39,060
how many of these simulated universes

2085
01:30:43,189 --> 01:30:41,580
are there again assuming that we've

2086
01:30:45,709 --> 01:30:43,199
gotten to the point say in the future

2087
01:30:47,270 --> 01:30:45,719
when we're able to simulate worlds of

2088
01:30:50,629 --> 01:30:47,280
the conscious beings there could be a

2089
01:30:52,370 --> 01:30:50,639
gazillion simulated universes you know

2090
01:30:54,110 --> 01:30:52,380
some kid just comes home late at night

2091
01:30:56,030 --> 01:30:54,120
and flips on the

2092
01:30:57,890 --> 01:30:56,040
computer and says let me just simulate

2093
01:31:00,110 --> 01:30:57,900
one more Universe with these and these

2094
01:31:02,149 --> 01:31:00,120
parameters it just flips it up and the

2095
01:31:03,830 --> 01:31:02,159
computer just simulates it and within

2096
01:31:05,750 --> 01:31:03,840
that simulation our further conscious

2097
01:31:08,330 --> 01:31:05,760
beings so then the question to ask

2098
01:31:10,250 --> 01:31:08,340
yourself is what's the likelihood that

2099
01:31:12,229 --> 01:31:10,260
right now we are in

2100
01:31:14,870 --> 01:31:12,239
the simulation

2101
01:31:17,510 --> 01:31:14,880
and if you sort of play the odds in the

2102
01:31:19,490 --> 01:31:17,520
most naive way you say well there's only

2103
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:19,500
one real universe

2104
01:31:25,189 --> 01:31:22,080
but they're a gazillion gazillion

2105
01:31:28,010 --> 01:31:25,199
gazillion of these simulated worlds

2106
01:31:30,669 --> 01:31:28,020
and so the odds would seem to suggest

2107
01:31:33,229 --> 01:31:30,679
that we are in a simulated world just by

2108
01:31:34,430 --> 01:31:33,239
sheer force of the numbers and

2109
01:31:36,530 --> 01:31:34,440
probabilities

2110
01:31:38,270 --> 01:31:36,540
so do I believe that do I think that we

2111
01:31:40,790 --> 01:31:38,280
are in a simulation right now I can't

2112
01:31:44,510 --> 01:31:40,800
say that I do if you're to really

2113
01:31:47,030 --> 01:31:44,520
challenge me why I don't I don't really

2114
01:31:52,189 --> 01:31:47,040
have a good response beyond the fact

2115
01:31:53,689 --> 01:31:52,199
that I've never seen a simulation that

2116
01:31:57,110 --> 01:31:53,699
can do this

2117
01:31:59,510 --> 01:31:57,120
but you know that may simply be that the

2118
01:32:02,629 --> 01:31:59,520
simulator is so good that the simulator

2119
01:32:05,870 --> 01:32:02,639
is hidden from me the fact that I'm in a

2120
01:32:08,629 --> 01:32:05,880
simulation and I agree that if I

2121
01:32:11,330 --> 01:32:08,639
extrapolate from where computation was

2122
01:32:15,470 --> 01:32:11,340
40 years ago it's where it is today sort

2123
01:32:18,890 --> 01:32:15,480
of exponential growth in its ability to

2124
01:32:21,169 --> 01:32:18,900
do things that seem real then you know

2125
01:32:23,930 --> 01:32:21,179
don't go 40 years hence assuming we

2126
01:32:26,330 --> 01:32:23,940
don't blow ourselves up go A Thousand

2127
01:32:29,169 --> 01:32:26,340
Years hence and now you can really

2128
01:32:33,530 --> 01:32:29,179
imagine that there are these simulations

2129
01:32:35,470 --> 01:32:33,540
and we could well be in one of them so

2130
01:32:39,470 --> 01:32:35,480
I don't feel like I have a strong

2131
01:32:42,830 --> 01:32:39,480
refutation of the possibility that I'm

2132
01:32:45,229 --> 01:32:42,840
in a simulation but damn I certainly I I

2133
01:32:46,850 --> 01:32:45,239
can't say that I think or believe that I

2134
01:32:50,270 --> 01:32:46,860
am

2135
01:32:52,129 --> 01:32:50,280
man thank you so much for your time it's

2136
01:32:53,810 --> 01:32:52,139
been a pleasure I do have a last

2137
01:32:55,490 --> 01:32:53,820
question from Charlie from The Institute

2138
01:32:57,350 --> 01:32:55,500
for arts and ideas he sent this to me

2139
01:32:59,090 --> 01:32:57,360
and he's like Kurt can you please if

2140
01:33:01,070 --> 01:32:59,100
you're speaking to Brian I would love if

2141
01:33:03,530 --> 01:33:01,080
you could mention this so I'll chat it

2142
01:33:06,790 --> 01:33:03,540
here and I can say it aloud if that's

2143
01:33:11,870 --> 01:33:09,410
so it's actually two uh

2144
01:33:14,149 --> 01:33:11,880
I can uh okay okay why don't you read it

2145
01:33:16,490 --> 01:33:14,159
yeah Charlie Barnett from The Institute

2146
01:33:18,950 --> 01:33:16,500
of Arts and ideas says

2147
01:33:20,870 --> 01:33:18,960
hi Brian almost a year ago to this day

2148
01:33:22,610 --> 01:33:20,880
you were featured on a panel at the IAI

2149
01:33:24,590 --> 01:33:22,620
so the institute for arts and ideas with

2150
01:33:27,290 --> 01:33:24,600
Michael Shermer Sabine hostenfelder and

2151
01:33:28,790 --> 01:33:27,300
Eric Weinstein Eric Weinstein who is a

2152
01:33:30,470 --> 01:33:28,800
mathematical physicist at Harvard said

2153
01:33:33,229 --> 01:33:30,480
that string theory had a terrible

2154
01:33:35,450 --> 01:33:33,239
culture in the 1980s that was in the

2155
01:33:37,550 --> 01:33:35,460
process of resolving itself

2156
01:33:38,629 --> 01:33:37,560
in response to this you sympathize and

2157
01:33:40,669 --> 01:33:38,639
said that there was a sense of

2158
01:33:42,110 --> 01:33:40,679
unreasonable exuberance that many

2159
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:42,120
thought string theory was the final

2160
01:33:46,370 --> 01:33:44,880
Theory but it also seemed that Eric was

2161
01:33:48,169 --> 01:33:46,380
slightly exaggerating how bad the

2162
01:33:50,030 --> 01:33:48,179
culture was what do you think he was

2163
01:33:54,050 --> 01:33:50,040
referring to and could you maybe comment

2164
01:33:56,030 --> 01:33:54,060
more broadly about how one can ensure

2165
01:33:57,290 --> 01:33:56,040
that bias doesn't creep into scientific

2166
01:34:00,290 --> 01:33:57,300
theories

2167
01:34:01,250 --> 01:34:00,300
yeah I mean you know you know briefly

2168
01:34:04,729 --> 01:34:01,260
put

2169
01:34:07,550 --> 01:34:04,739
there there was a sentiment in the 80s I

2170
01:34:10,250 --> 01:34:07,560
mean I was I was there as in thick of it

2171
01:34:11,870 --> 01:34:10,260
as a graduate student mostly not as a

2172
01:34:15,950 --> 01:34:11,880
faculty member

2173
01:34:18,410 --> 01:34:15,960
and there was a sentiment that we were

2174
01:34:19,970 --> 01:34:18,420
approaching the end of physics

2175
01:34:22,310 --> 01:34:19,980
it was naive

2176
01:34:25,669 --> 01:34:22,320
but it was genuine it wasn't as though

2177
01:34:28,310 --> 01:34:25,679
people were making it up I mean you

2178
01:34:29,930 --> 01:34:28,320
can't imagine well you can but

2179
01:34:33,350 --> 01:34:29,940
if you weren't actually part of it

2180
01:34:37,070 --> 01:34:33,360
perhaps someone can't really feel the

2181
01:34:41,030 --> 01:34:37,080
visceral excitement that had taken hold

2182
01:34:42,890 --> 01:34:41,040
of a segment of the physics Community I

2183
01:34:46,790 --> 01:34:42,900
mean there I was a graduate student at

2184
01:34:50,689 --> 01:34:46,800
Oxford in 1984 1985

2185
01:34:53,149 --> 01:34:50,699
and every Wednesday or something like

2186
01:34:54,590 --> 01:34:53,159
that when when the free prints were

2187
01:34:56,990 --> 01:34:54,600
finally delivered to the physics

2188
01:34:59,810 --> 01:34:57,000
department The Graduate students two

2189
01:35:02,810 --> 01:34:59,820
others and myself in particular

2190
01:35:05,450 --> 01:35:02,820
we would like tear open the envelopes to

2191
01:35:07,189 --> 01:35:05,460
see the next result and we'd take that

2192
01:35:09,050 --> 01:35:07,199
paper and compare to what we were doing

2193
01:35:11,750 --> 01:35:09,060
we'd go upset and we were working like

2194
01:35:13,550 --> 01:35:11,760
you know 15 hours a day

2195
01:35:15,470 --> 01:35:13,560
you know I go to sleep at two in the

2196
01:35:17,270 --> 01:35:15,480
morning I'd wake up at seven I'd ride my

2197
01:35:20,090 --> 01:35:17,280
bike to the physical because it was just

2198
01:35:21,290 --> 01:35:20,100
like oh my God like it was all coming

2199
01:35:23,390 --> 01:35:21,300
together

2200
01:35:26,030 --> 01:35:23,400
which is all just to say it was genuine

2201
01:35:28,189 --> 01:35:26,040
the excitement was genuine but the

2202
01:35:31,370 --> 01:35:28,199
downside of that kind of excitement is

2203
01:35:34,070 --> 01:35:31,380
if someone's not working on string

2204
01:35:37,010 --> 01:35:34,080
theory at that time I can well imagine

2205
01:35:38,930 --> 01:35:37,020
they feel like a complete Outsider that

2206
01:35:41,510 --> 01:35:38,940
they're completely excluded that nobody

2207
01:35:44,870 --> 01:35:41,520
cares about what they're working on or

2208
01:35:47,450 --> 01:35:44,880
what they are doing and and I know

2209
01:35:49,070 --> 01:35:47,460
people who have described that

2210
01:35:50,990 --> 01:35:49,080
experience to me and I don't know if

2211
01:35:52,850 --> 01:35:51,000
that was Eric's experience or if there

2212
01:35:53,990 --> 01:35:52,860
was something particular that happened I

2213
01:35:55,850 --> 01:35:54,000
just don't know I don't know him

2214
01:35:59,570 --> 01:35:55,860
personally sure I've done that event and

2215
01:36:01,430 --> 01:35:59,580
so forth but I do know people who from a

2216
01:36:04,850 --> 01:36:01,440
more personal perspective have described

2217
01:36:07,129 --> 01:36:04,860
how alienated the excitement and the

2218
01:36:09,470 --> 01:36:07,139
string theory Community made them feel

2219
01:36:13,250 --> 01:36:09,480
back in those days

2220
01:36:15,530 --> 01:36:13,260
and and so I get it and and I wish it

2221
01:36:17,090 --> 01:36:15,540
wasn't that way but I guess the point

2222
01:36:19,250 --> 01:36:17,100
that I was making last year and the

2223
01:36:22,189 --> 01:36:19,260
point that I make again here it wasn't

2224
01:36:24,050 --> 01:36:22,199
malicious it wasn't like folks said

2225
01:36:26,450 --> 01:36:24,060
let's exclude everybody else is not

2226
01:36:28,850 --> 01:36:26,460
working on this sacred it wasn't like

2227
01:36:30,470 --> 01:36:28,860
that it was just that people were so

2228
01:36:33,709 --> 01:36:30,480
wrapped up in what they were doing and

2229
01:36:35,689 --> 01:36:33,719
so excited by what they were doing that

2230
01:36:38,930 --> 01:36:35,699
there wasn't a lot of energy or time

2231
01:36:41,330 --> 01:36:38,940
left in the community to pay attention

2232
01:36:43,910 --> 01:36:41,340
to things that were happening in in in

2233
01:36:46,370 --> 01:36:43,920
the surrounding and when it came to jobs

2234
01:36:48,310 --> 01:36:46,380
there were real implications for this

2235
01:36:51,530 --> 01:36:48,320
you know in those days

2236
01:36:53,870 --> 01:36:51,540
more strength here is got the postdocs

2237
01:36:56,149 --> 01:36:53,880
and got the faculty jobs because of the

2238
01:36:57,709 --> 01:36:56,159
excitement and you can well imagine that

2239
01:37:00,110 --> 01:36:57,719
somebody who is working hard and doing

2240
01:37:03,770 --> 01:37:00,120
really good work but outside of string

2241
01:37:06,470 --> 01:37:03,780
theory maybe said let me in I want a job

2242
01:37:08,030 --> 01:37:06,480
like I want a postdoc I want to I get it

2243
01:37:11,030 --> 01:37:08,040
and I totally

2244
01:37:12,709 --> 01:37:11,040
empathize with that but it's just that

2245
01:37:14,209 --> 01:37:12,719
when it's framed as though string

2246
01:37:16,790 --> 01:37:14,219
theorists were like a malicious

2247
01:37:19,910 --> 01:37:16,800
community that were sort of barring the

2248
01:37:22,970 --> 01:37:19,920
doors against it wasn't like that at all

2249
01:37:25,370 --> 01:37:22,980
it was just coming from whatever Alan

2250
01:37:27,590 --> 01:37:25,380
Green's you know irrational exuberance

2251
01:37:29,750 --> 01:37:27,600
you know it was exuberant and was it

2252
01:37:31,910 --> 01:37:29,760
irrational not irrational but it was

2253
01:37:35,570 --> 01:37:31,920
perhaps a little too much

2254
01:37:39,410 --> 01:37:35,580
because the more seasoned researchers

2255
01:37:42,590 --> 01:37:39,420
and physicists at that time knew that

2256
01:37:45,110 --> 01:37:42,600
ultimately the excitement would die down

2257
01:37:47,450 --> 01:37:45,120
and the theory would need to mature and

2258
01:37:50,570 --> 01:37:47,460
be developed and and that's what we've

2259
01:37:53,330 --> 01:37:50,580
been doing so I think that's sort of my

2260
01:37:56,209 --> 01:37:53,340
best answer that it was coming from a

2261
01:37:58,010 --> 01:37:56,219
good place it wasn't coming from a place

2262
01:37:59,810 --> 01:37:58,020
of exclusion

2263
01:38:02,149 --> 01:37:59,820
thank you Professor thank you for

2264
01:38:03,410 --> 01:38:02,159
spending so much time with me and I want

2265
01:38:05,510 --> 01:38:03,420
to know well people want to know where

2266
01:38:07,850 --> 01:38:05,520
can they find out more about you and

2267
01:38:09,890 --> 01:38:07,860
what you're working on next and what are

2268
01:38:12,770 --> 01:38:09,900
the URLs the social media

2269
01:38:15,169 --> 01:38:12,780
yeah you know I I I need to be a little

2270
01:38:18,110 --> 01:38:15,179
bit more active in that realm you know

2271
01:38:20,270 --> 01:38:18,120
sometimes I use Twitter my kids tell me

2272
01:38:22,490 --> 01:38:20,280
I should use Instagram maybe I'll start

2273
01:38:24,830 --> 01:38:22,500
doing that I don't know Tick Tock maybe

2274
01:38:26,810 --> 01:38:24,840
I think I'm too old for that but you

2275
01:38:29,330 --> 01:38:26,820
know the world Science Festival is

2276
01:38:31,550 --> 01:38:29,340
probably the best place we are creating

2277
01:38:33,229 --> 01:38:31,560
all sorts of I think really interesting

2278
01:38:35,510 --> 01:38:33,239
content and so people should sign up for

2279
01:38:37,490 --> 01:38:35,520
the world science social newsletter and

2280
01:38:40,250 --> 01:38:37,500
that certainly where a lot of my focus

2281
01:38:41,510 --> 01:38:40,260
has been in terms of bringing signs to

2282
01:38:43,370 --> 01:38:41,520
the public

2283
01:38:46,430 --> 01:38:43,380
um and yeah if you happen to be uh in

2284
01:38:47,930 --> 01:38:46,440
the Toronto area on the 26th and you

2285
01:38:50,629 --> 01:38:47,940
said it's next week because relative to

2286
01:38:52,850 --> 01:38:50,639
when this goes out yeah come by to the

2287
01:38:54,290 --> 01:38:52,860
program at Roy Thompson Hall I think

2288
01:38:56,689 --> 01:38:54,300
you'll enjoy it sort of an evening

2289
01:38:59,450 --> 01:38:56,699
exploration of the Universe from sort of

2290
01:39:03,350 --> 01:38:59,460
Soup To Nuts great and just to be clear

2291
01:39:05,450 --> 01:39:03,360
that's January 26 2023 evening time I'm

2292
01:39:08,689 --> 01:39:05,460
assuming when whatever it is I'll put it

2293
01:39:10,669 --> 01:39:08,699
on screen yeah and is that is that being

2294
01:39:12,590 --> 01:39:10,679
repeated that talking it at a different

2295
01:39:14,629 --> 01:39:12,600
city that you can promote

2296
01:39:16,910 --> 01:39:14,639
I don't know not yet I'm just sort of

2297
01:39:19,790 --> 01:39:16,920
trying it out in Toronto see how it goes

2298
01:39:21,350 --> 01:39:19,800
and yeah if the reception is is good

2299
01:39:23,330 --> 01:39:21,360
then I can imagine doing it all right

2300
01:39:24,770 --> 01:39:23,340
we're the testing ground and maybe I'll

2301
01:39:27,830 --> 01:39:24,780
see you there I don't think I'm in town

2302
01:39:29,030 --> 01:39:27,840
then otherwise I I don't think I'm in

2303
01:39:30,770 --> 01:39:29,040
town it would it would have been great

2304
01:39:32,870 --> 01:39:30,780
to shake your hand man

2305
01:39:35,270 --> 01:39:32,880
if for whatever reason my other plans

2306
01:39:36,770 --> 01:39:35,280
cancel then hey if you find yourself in

2307
01:39:38,750 --> 01:39:36,780
New York if you find yourself in New

2308
01:39:40,910 --> 01:39:38,760
York at the end of May we're going to do

2309
01:39:43,729 --> 01:39:40,920
our first live world Science Festival

2310
01:39:45,649 --> 01:39:43,739
since 2019 because of everything you

2311
01:39:48,050 --> 01:39:45,659
know we've gone fully digital but we're

2312
01:39:52,189 --> 01:39:48,060
going to go live again in the end of May

2313
01:39:54,649 --> 01:39:52,199
of 2023 and that's coming up in you know

2314
01:39:56,810 --> 01:39:54,659
five six months so it'll be a fun time

2315
01:39:59,149 --> 01:39:56,820
in New York and I'm going to do this

2316
01:40:01,370 --> 01:39:59,159
program in New York as well

2317
01:40:02,990 --> 01:40:01,380
okay I see I see okay yeah well

2318
01:40:05,330 --> 01:40:03,000
definitely keep me apprised about the

2319
01:40:06,590 --> 01:40:05,340
world Science Festival because as toe

2320
01:40:08,030 --> 01:40:06,600
grows sorry the theories of everything

2321
01:40:10,490 --> 01:40:08,040
Channel girls maybe there's something I

2322
01:40:12,290 --> 01:40:10,500
could do to help promote it and it was

2323
01:40:14,390 --> 01:40:12,300
yeah it was a pleasure man

2324
01:40:16,610 --> 01:40:14,400
my pleasure too it's good talking to you

2325
01:40:18,290 --> 01:40:16,620
the podcast is now concluded thank you

2326
01:40:20,149 --> 01:40:18,300
for watching if you haven't subscribed

2327
01:40:22,189 --> 01:40:20,159
or clicked on that like button now would

2328
01:40:24,950 --> 01:40:22,199
be a great time to do so as each

2329
01:40:27,050 --> 01:40:24,960
subscribe and like helps YouTube push

2330
01:40:28,850 --> 01:40:27,060
this content to more people also I

2331
01:40:31,250 --> 01:40:28,860
recently found out that external links

2332
01:40:33,709 --> 01:40:31,260
count plenty toward the algorithm which

2333
01:40:34,970 --> 01:40:33,719
means that when you share on Twitter on

2334
01:40:37,129 --> 01:40:34,980
Facebook on Reddit

2335
01:40:38,990 --> 01:40:37,139
Etc it shows YouTube that people are

2336
01:40:41,030 --> 01:40:39,000
talking about this outside of YouTube

2337
01:40:42,890 --> 01:40:41,040
which in turn greatly AIDS the

2338
01:40:44,570 --> 01:40:42,900
Distribution on YouTube as well if you'd

2339
01:40:46,870 --> 01:40:44,580
like to support more conversations like

2340
01:40:48,950 --> 01:40:46,880
this then do consider visiting

2341
01:40:51,169 --> 01:40:48,960
theoriesofeverything.org again it's

2342
01:40:53,629 --> 01:40:51,179
support from the sponsors and you that

2343
01:40:55,250 --> 01:40:53,639
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2344
01:40:57,410 --> 01:40:55,260
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2345
01:40:59,510 --> 01:40:57,420
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